975 replies to this topic

[Andrew]

Saltwater, on 22 November 2011 - 12:03 AM, said:

maybe, maybe not. But at the same time I feel that alot of "stereotyping" and " bad match-ups" are a bit of a wooly expression nowadays. Quality is quality, in whichever form it comes. Same has been said of Aguero and Silva in terms of adapting to a "rougher, pacier league".
I think big andy in form would have contributed to most teams...

thats a load of bollocks though, a big lone target man (carroll is not as pacy nor as good a finisher as Ba imo) wouldnt work in our current setup, we don't play like we did with everything going through barton to carroll anymore, its a lot more on the ground and team play oriented

Ba wins his fair share in the air, though not as much as carroll would, but hes a better all rounder which is what we need from our main striker

the quality is quality argument is whats kept people sticking gerrard and lampard together in englands midfield despite the fact its unbalanced and obviously never worked for the team, players to suit the system is whats needed nowadays, not ram a bunch in and see if a system works itself out, the reason Aguero and Silva work is because A) they play in the right way to work in man citys team and B ) theyre both absolutely world class footballers who can do stuff even other good pros cant with ease

[Lake Bells tits]

Semimental, on 22 November 2011 - 12:10 AM, said:

Saltwater, on 22 November 2011 - 12:03 AM, said:

maybe, maybe not. But at the same time I feel that alot of "stereotyping" and " bad match-ups" are a bit of a wooly expression nowadays. Quality is quality, in whichever form it comes. Same has been said of Aguero and Silva in terms of adapting to a "rougher, pacier league".
I think big andy in form would have contributed to most teams...

thats a load of bollocks though, a big lone target man (carroll is not as pacy nor as good a finisher as Ba imo) wouldnt work in our current setup, we don't play like we did with everything going through barton to carroll anymore, its a lot more on the ground and team play oriented

Ba wins his fair share in the air, though not as much as carroll would, but hes a better all rounder which is what we need from our main striker

the quality is quality argument is whats kept people sticking gerrard and lampard together in englands midfield despite the fact its unbalanced and obviously never worked for the team, players to suit the system is whats needed nowadays, not ram a bunch in and see if a system works itself out, the reason Aguero and Silva work is because A) they play in the right way to work in man citys team and B ) theyre both absolutely world class footballers who can do stuff even other good pros cant with ease

The fault in your logic is that you refer to carroll as a finished article. He smashed in 12 goals by december at the age of 20, who`s to say he wouldnt be able to adapt or evolve into a better player if we kept fielding him? Ba, by comparison, is 27 and might well have peaked already...time will tell... my point is that there is no knowing how good andy would have become if he stayed here....

Edited by Saltwater, 22 November 2011 - 12:34 AM.

[Tom]

Carroll is 23 in January, Ba is 27 in May for the record...

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt]

Also, to give the proper context, Carroll is shit at football, Ba is good.

[Lake Bells tits]

Ok so carroll was 21 at the time and not 20, apologies

[Noelie]

Park Life, on 21 November 2011 - 11:58 PM, said:

There was only one winner in the Carroll deal and it wasn't Carroll.

Not quite true Park Life, Carroll may be a loser in regard to playing time,  but he would get a nifty chunk of the transfer fee plus higher wages so you would have to say he was a winner in some respects.

[Dr Gloom]

I wonder if Carroll regrets the move now. He was a guaranteed starter for us. I suppose the lure of his hometown hallowed number 9 shirt wasn't as big a deal as it was to Shearer. You could argue he was forced out by the owners who were determined to cash in but if he'd really wanted to stay he could have dragged his heels. I still think he's a good player and would walk back into our starting 11 but he clearly isn't as good as some thought. Never a 35m player in a million years. 10-15m aye, no more

[The Fish]

Dr Gloom, on 22 November 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

I wonder if Carroll regrets the move now. He was a guaranteed starter for us. I suppose the lure of his hometown hallowed number 9 shirt wasn't as big a deal as it was to Shearer. You could argue he was forced out by the owners who were determined to cash in but if he'd really wanted to stay he could have dragged his heels. I still think he's a good player and would walk back into our starting 11 but he clearly isn't as good as some thought. Never a 35m player in a million years. 10-15m aye, no more

to be honest, Liverpool only really valued him at £15m, but they knew they were in for a windfall from Torres' departure. If we'd managed to get them up to £40m, I'm pretty sure Torres would have gone for £55m

[J69]

Dr Gloom, on 22 November 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

I wonder if Carroll regrets the move now. He was a guaranteed starter for us. I suppose the lure of his hometown hallowed number 9 shirt wasn't as big a deal as it was to Shearer. You could argue he was forced out by the owners who were determined to cash in but if he'd really wanted to stay he could have dragged his heels. I still think he's a good player and would walk back into our starting 11 but he clearly isn't as good as some thought. Never a 35m player in a million years. 10-15m aye, no more

He probably tripled his wages and got a few mil signing on fee so I doubt he's that upset about it

[Lake Bells tits]

It depends, is he a owen who likes cashing in while warming the bench, or does he want to play? The lad will never have to worry about money, fotball being his life I doubt he fancies the sideline. Just guessing though.

Is tripling your wage worth not playing fotball? at 33-34, maybe. at 22? Dunno. He has accomplished fuck all so far in his career, I reckon he would take our hand of if we offered him 35 grand a week to play as our #9 again.

[jaythesouthernmag]

The Fish, on 22 November 2011 - 10:00 AM, said:

Dr Gloom, on 22 November 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

I wonder if Carroll regrets the move now. He was a guaranteed starter for us. I suppose the lure of his hometown hallowed number 9 shirt wasn't as big a deal as it was to Shearer. You could argue he was forced out by the owners who were determined to cash in but if he'd really wanted to stay he could have dragged his heels. I still think he's a good player and would walk back into our starting 11 but he clearly isn't as good as some thought. Never a 35m player in a million years. 10-15m aye, no more

to be honest, Liverpool only really valued him at £15m, but they knew they were in for a windfall from Torres' departure. If we'd managed to get them up to £40m, I'm pretty sure Torres would have gone for £55m

Pretty irrelevant what they got for Torres, they still paid 35mil for Carroll. It's like us flogging Tiote for 30mil then buying Cattermole for 20mil. Mental decision by them when you consider what that money would get you in the striker market.

[Andrew]

Saltwater, on 22 November 2011 - 12:34 AM, said:

Semimental, on 22 November 2011 - 12:10 AM, said:

Saltwater, on 22 November 2011 - 12:03 AM, said:

maybe, maybe not. But at the same time I feel that alot of "stereotyping" and " bad match-ups" are a bit of a wooly expression nowadays. Quality is quality, in whichever form it comes. Same has been said of Aguero and Silva in terms of adapting to a "rougher, pacier league".
I think big andy in form would have contributed to most teams...

thats a load of bollocks though, a big lone target man (carroll is not as pacy nor as good a finisher as Ba imo) wouldnt work in our current setup, we don't play like we did with everything going through barton to carroll anymore, its a lot more on the ground and team play oriented

Ba wins his fair share in the air, though not as much as carroll would, but hes a better all rounder which is what we need from our main striker

the quality is quality argument is whats kept people sticking gerrard and lampard together in englands midfield despite the fact its unbalanced and obviously never worked for the team, players to suit the system is whats needed nowadays, not ram a bunch in and see if a system works itself out, the reason Aguero and Silva work is because A) they play in the right way to work in man citys team and B ) theyre both absolutely world class footballers who can do stuff even other good pros cant with ease

The fault in your logic is that you refer to carroll as a finished article. He smashed in 12 goals by december at the age of 20, who`s to say he wouldnt be able to adapt or evolve into a better player if we kept fielding him? Ba, by comparison, is 27 and might well have peaked already...time will tell... my point is that there is no knowing how good andy would have become if he stayed here....

but carroll isnt going to inherently change the style of player he is is he? is he going to shrink half a foot and suddenly become all pace and dribbling? no, he can get better as the type of player he is, a target man. the fact is we sold "potential" for 35million and signed current ability for nowt and it suits the team better to boot

[Happy Face]

alex, on 22 November 2011 - 12:45 PM, said:

The amount they got for Torres pretty much dictated what they were willing to pay for Carroll. I think that was his point. All well saying they could have gotten whoever but they wanted a striker then and it was basically just a case of money moving from Chelsea to us rather than Liverpool having possession of it. I take your point, in theory, but then again KD has final say on the transfers anyway so they'd have pissed it up the wall even if they'd waited until the summer. They aren't good enough to attract the cream of world football any more either.

Wasn't it stated by a Liverpool exec that it was the other way round (basically still the same thing), whatever we wanted for Carrol, Chelsea were going to pay £15m more for Torres?

Effectively (given that they'd paid £20m for Torres 4 years earlier), that £15m rule meant that whatever the final amounts agreed in from Chelsea and out to Newcastle, the true cost to them was about £5m.

An excellent deal.

Edited by Happy Face, 22 November 2011 - 01:49 PM.

[ewerk]

Happy Face, on 22 November 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

alex, on 22 November 2011 - 12:45 PM, said:

The amount they got for Torres pretty much dictated what they were willing to pay for Carroll. I think that was his point. All well saying they could have gotten whoever but they wanted a striker then and it was basically just a case of money moving from Chelsea to us rather than Liverpool having possession of it. I take your point, in theory, but then again KD has final say on the transfers anyway so they'd have pissed it up the wall even if they'd waited until the summer. They aren't good enough to attract the cream of world football any more either.

Wasn't it stated by a Liverpool exec that it was the other way round (basically still the same thing), whatever we wanted for Carrol, Chelsea were going to pay £15m more for Torres?

Effectively (given that they'd paid £20m for Torres 4 years earlier), that £15m rule meant that whatever the final amounts agreed in from Chelsea and out to Newcastle, the true cost to them was about £5m.

An excellent deal.

Really? Paying out five million to swap a world class striker with a relatively unproven player? Seems like madness to me.

I know neither of them have been pulling up trees since their respective moves but Torres is certainly worth more that Carroll + £5m.

[Happy Face]

ewerk, on 22 November 2011 - 01:53 PM, said:

Happy Face, on 22 November 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

alex, on 22 November 2011 - 12:45 PM, said:

The amount they got for Torres pretty much dictated what they were willing to pay for Carroll. I think that was his point. All well saying they could have gotten whoever but they wanted a striker then and it was basically just a case of money moving from Chelsea to us rather than Liverpool having possession of it. I take your point, in theory, but then again KD has final say on the transfers anyway so they'd have pissed it up the wall even if they'd waited until the summer. They aren't good enough to attract the cream of world football any more either.

Wasn't it stated by a Liverpool exec that it was the other way round (basically still the same thing), whatever we wanted for Carrol, Chelsea were going to pay £15m more for Torres?

Effectively (given that they'd paid £20m for Torres 4 years earlier), that £15m rule meant that whatever the final amounts agreed in from Chelsea and out to Newcastle, the true cost to them was about £5m.

An excellent deal.

Really? Paying out five million to swap a world class striker with a relatively unproven player? Seems like madness to me.

I know neither of them have been pulling up trees since their respective moves but Torres is certainly worth more that Carroll + £5m.

I know, he's worth Carroll + £15m

Pay £20m for Torres
Get £50m back
Spend £35m on Carroll

Total outlay for 4 years of Torres at the peak of his career and taking on one of the best prospects in England - £5m.

There are clearly better players available for £35m than Carroll...Suarez for a start....but his value was dictated by Newcastle and Chelsea.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt]

From Carroll's perspective it's definitely better to cash in now. He doesn't exactly lead an ascetic lifestyle and there's a chance he may deteriorate early because of this. Whilst evergreen professionals like Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs practice yoga and strict diets to maintain their athleticism, Carroll is downing 13 pints of stella and collapsing face-first into urinals flooded with piss on a nightly basis. Allegedly.

Edited by Kevin S. Assilleekunt, 22 November 2011 - 03:48 PM.

[Park Life]

Kevin S. Assilleekunt, on 22 November 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

From Carroll's perspective it's definitely better to cash in now. He doesn't exactly lead an ascetic lifestyle and there's a chance he may deteriorate early because of this. Whilst evergreen professionals like Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs practice yoga and strict diets to maintain their athleticism, Carroll is downing 13 pints of stella and collapsing face-first into urinals flooded with piss on a nightly basis. Allegedly.

Regimen of the gods mate.

[manc-mag]

Kevin S. Assilleekunt, on 22 November 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

From Carroll's perspective it's definitely better to cash in now. He doesn't exactly lead an ascetic lifestyle and there's a chance he may deteriorate early because of this. Whilst evergreen professionals like Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs practice yoga and strict diets to maintain their athleticism, Carroll is downing 13 pints of stella and collapsing face-first into urinals flooded with piss on a nightly basis. Allegedly.

quality.

[Kitman]

Kevin S. Assilleekunt, on 22 November 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

From Carroll's perspective it's definitely better to cash in now. He doesn't exactly lead an ascetic lifestyle and there's a chance he may deteriorate early because of this. Whilst evergreen professionals like Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs practice yoga and strict diets to maintain their athleticism, Carroll is downing 13 pints of stella and collapsing face-first into urinals flooded with piss on a nightly basis. Allegedly.

Apparently his complexion is all the better for it too