155 replies to this topic

[LeazesMag]

acrossthepond, on 29 November 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

I reckon you'd get the same result on N-O. Nee fucker (in his right mind) likes Ashley. Everyone knows he and Dekka are reprehensible, slimy scum who lie with every word and think we're thick Geordie bastards. They have no redeeming qualities.

The question is whether he's been a net positive or negative for the club. I think it's apparent to basically anyone who loves this club that Ashley is essentially a petulant chancer who gambles constantly on the club's future. Even removing the debate over whether he's just using us as free advertising for Sports Direct, the fact remains that he has no cohesive plan and is just rolling the dice. It has failed him before. For now, it seems to be working, and long may it continue, because confidence and enjoyment are at a high we hadn't thought to see again for some time. But a few good results shouldn't obscure the basic problem we've always had with Ashley: there's no predicting what he's going to do next, and it probably isn't going to be good news.

We were doing fine under KK - Ashley's puppet Wise undermined him. We were doing fine under Hughton - Ashley and Dekka contrived to remove him in favour of Pardew. Now we're doing great under Pardew - how long until something happens that will screw that up? Ashley has no plan for sustained success and never has. He's just gambling again, seeing how long his luck will last, seeing how many idiotic blunders he can make before it all goes pear-shaped again. He's on quite a streak at the moment - sacking Hughton, selling Carroll without spending the money, letting Enrique go without replacing him, letting Barton go for free, not buying another striker in the summer (in fact, spending none of the Carroll money at all), trying to rename a piece of history. But it won't last.

If that's the kind of person you think is going to bring this club lasting success, you deserve whatever you get, tbh. Ashley is both odious as a person and terrible for this club, and us fluking a top 6 finish or getting to a cup final won't change that. Only sustained investment will, and you'd be better off whistling for it.

absolutely,

"Like" is irrelevant anyway, it doesn''t matter if you "like" someone or not, so long as the team is attempting to or actually being successful, and to date, it isn't.

Whatever a small flash in the pan run of results suggests.

[LeazesMag]

manc-mag, on 29 November 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

alex, on 29 November 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:

ChezGiven, on 29 November 2011 - 01:00 PM, said:

I voted no as I don't like him but I approve of his strategy in it's present guise but dislike his attitude towards the fans. That conditional approval of the current strategy is based on my own supposition of what that is, as no one knows for sure. It's that lack of communication that pisses me off the most. The reason I give a nuanced response is because I certainly approve of Pardew, Colo as our captain and the rest of the lads. As much as we are loathe to admit it, someone needs a pat on the head for appointing Pardew as it was far from an obvious or popular choice.

January'll be 'interesting' like. We've never been in this sort of position before under Ashley, in terms of league position and, arguably, playing personnel and coaching staff, scouting network etc. Even if it's just hanging onto what we have and tying down Coloccini on a new deal it'll be a big step in the right direction. If we can bring in a couple of first teamers then even more so. I'd go along with manc-mag's practical views on the Tiote situation too. I.e. his leaving could be acceptable under the right circumstances.

Colo is massive for so many reasons. It's entirely separate to the 'sell for a profit' debate, he could actually go simply because we don't offer to renew his wages. That wouldn't be evidence of us as being a 'selling club' (although it would be portrayed that way) it would simply confirm what is largely suspected about there being a wage cap (I would reckon at circa £50k). That then absolutely establishes the tone for how long we keep any player for-the answer simply being until anyone else is prepared to offer them more than (ie £50k pw). That in turn gives a good indication of the teams that are actually capable of coming in and offering for a player.

Colo would be an absolutely huge loss from a footballing point of view and the biggest argument I can think of for operating a discretion to depart from the wage cap in certain instances (in his case possibly attempting to justify it on the basis it's not an improved deal, it's just giving him parity and to offer less would be a disincentive and perverse given performance). How well that would go down in reality though with the rest of the team is another matter altogether. I suspect not well at all for fairly obvious reasons.

do you THINK he will be sold, either in January or in the summer ?

Do you THINK the money from the sale [whenever it happens] will be given to the manager to try and improve his team in the way he sees fit ?

And why do you think if this money or most of it is pocketed again, it doesn't make us a selling club ? How much more proof do you want ? How stupid and blind are you exactly ?

Edited by LeazesMag, 29 November 2011 - 01:31 PM.

[Lake Bells tits]

He is a cock who doesnt want to invest. No results will change that. But God have decided to make us top-4 just for the lulz. Im having fun too harassing other clubs fans. Long may the success continue.

[Happy Face]

ewerk, on 29 November 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Happy Face, on 29 November 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

alex, on 29 November 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

He appointed Pardew and Pardew is doing a great job (at present). Whether the decision was lucky or inspired (or both) is largely immaterial to me.

I think there's an argument to be made that their enthusiasm for a top flight job, having thought they were finished, can be worth twice what someone like Mark Hughes would bring.  As much as Ashley deserves pillorying for appointing Kinnear, he deserves credit for Pardew...but both were total risks, based on cost rather than ability.

Again, no. If I go and buy a lottery ticket and win the jackpot, does that make me the world's most astute investor or does it make me incredibly lucky?

There are no guarantees though.  At the moment I'm much happier with Pardew than I ever was with "proven quality" like Allardyce or Souness.

[manc-mag]

ewerk, on 29 November 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Happy Face, on 29 November 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

alex, on 29 November 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

He appointed Pardew and Pardew is doing a great job (at present). Whether the decision was lucky or inspired (or both) is largely immaterial to me.

I think there's an argument to be made that their enthusiasm for a top flight job, having thought they were finished, can be worth twice what someone like Mark Hughes would bring.  As much as Ashley deserves pillorying for appointing Kinnear, he deserves credit for Pardew...but both were total risks, based on cost rather than ability.

Again, no. If I go and buy a lottery ticket and win the jackpot, does that make me the world's most astute investor or does it make me incredibly lucky?

Depends. System for picking your numbers or lucky dip?

[Lake Bells tits]

He doesnt deserve any credit. Pardew deserves credit. and Carr deserves credit. Mike just sits in his office with a shut purse and a sandwich and telling people to find cheap prospects with resale-value. The man has no clue whatsoever when it comes to fotball.

[Happy Face]

LeazesMag, on 29 November 2011 - 01:31 PM, said:

do you THINK he will be sold, either in January or in the summer ?

Do you THINK the money from the sale [whenever it happens] will be given to the manager to try and improve his team in the way he sees fit ?

And why do you THINK if this money or most of it is pocketed again, it doesn't make us a selling club ? How much more proof do you want ? How stupid and blind are you exactly ?

[Happy Face]

alex, on 29 November 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

Happy Face, on 29 November 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

alex, on 29 November 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

He appointed Pardew and Pardew is doing a great job (at present). Whether the decision was lucky or inspired (or both) is largely immaterial to me.

I think there's an argument to be made that their enthusiasm for a top flight job, having thought they were finished, can be worth twice what someone like Mark Hughes would bring.  As much as Ashley deserves pillorying for appointing Kinnear, he dereves credit for Pardew...but both were total risks, based on cost rather than ability.

I'm not sure I agree. Kinnear was reputed to be on a lot of money, with an additional big bonus if we stayed up. Now, I'm not suggesting for a second it was a good decision, it was a crazy decision at the time and in even dafter in retrospect. I still struggle to believe he did it when I think about it sometimes. As for Pardew, bringing him in and getting rid of Hughton was more expensive than just keeping Hughton until the end of the season.
I totally accept both decisions were risky (and I didn't agree with either of them) but the logic that it was done purely to save money doesn't quite add up for me.

I don't think Kinnear was anywhere close to Keegan money....or Hughton was close to Shearer money after going down.   Giving Pardew a 5 year contract was cheaper than improving Hughton's for 5 years when he was far exceeding expectations.

Adds up from where I'm standing.

[manc-mag]

alex, on 29 November 2011 - 01:31 PM, said:

manc-mag, on 29 November 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

alex, on 29 November 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:

ChezGiven, on 29 November 2011 - 01:00 PM, said:

I voted no as I don't like him but I approve of his strategy in it's present guise but dislike his attitude towards the fans. That conditional approval of the current strategy is based on my own supposition of what that is, as no one knows for sure. It's that lack of communication that pisses me off the most. The reason I give a nuanced response is because I certainly approve of Pardew, Colo as our captain and the rest of the lads. As much as we are loathe to admit it, someone needs a pat on the head for appointing Pardew as it was far from an obvious or popular choice.

January'll be 'interesting' like. We've never been in this sort of position before under Ashley, in terms of league position and, arguably, playing personnel and coaching staff, scouting network etc. Even if it's just hanging onto what we have and tying down Coloccini on a new deal it'll be a big step in the right direction. If we can bring in a couple of first teamers then even more so. I'd go along with manc-mag's practical views on the Tiote situation too. I.e. his leaving could be acceptable under the right circumstances.

Colo is massive for so many reasons. It's entirely separate to the 'sell for a profit' debate, he could actually go simply because we don't offer to renew his wages. That wouldn't be evidence of us as being a 'selling club' (although it would be portrayed that way) it would simply confirm what is largely suspected about there being a wage cap (I would reckon at circa £50k). That then absolutely establishes the tone for how long we keep any player for-the answer simply being until anyone else is prepared to offer them more than (ie £50k pw). That in turn gives a good indication of the teams that are actually capable of coming in and offering for a player.

Colo would be an absolutely huge loss from a footballing point of view and the biggest argument I can think of for operating a discretion to depart from the wage cap in certain instances (in his case possibly attempting to justify it on the basis it's not an improved deal, it's just giving him parity and to offer less would be a disincentive and perverse given performance). How well that would go down in reality though with the rest of the team is another matter altogether. I suspect not well at all for fairly obvious reasons.

He might stay for less money imo. Not saying you could offer him half what he's on and he'd turn around and accept it but if he's enjoying life here and (most importantly) the team is being strengthened with additions then I could see him signing a new deal more or less in line with the wage cap you mention.

I would absolutely love that to be true and he should be offered every bonus under the sun if it did prove to be the case. A 'captains loyalty bonus' lump sum after year x wouldn't be a bad idea, as concocted sham wage deals go.

[ewerk]

Happy Face, on 29 November 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:

ewerk, on 29 November 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Happy Face, on 29 November 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

alex, on 29 November 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

He appointed Pardew and Pardew is doing a great job (at present). Whether the decision was lucky or inspired (or both) is largely immaterial to me.

I think there's an argument to be made that their enthusiasm for a top flight job, having thought they were finished, can be worth twice what someone like Mark Hughes would bring.  As much as Ashley deserves pillorying for appointing Kinnear, he deserves credit for Pardew...but both were total risks, based on cost rather than ability.

Again, no. If I go and buy a lottery ticket and win the jackpot, does that make me the world's most astute investor or does it make me incredibly lucky?

There are no guarantees though.  At the moment I'm much happier with Pardew than I ever was with "proven quality" like Allardyce or Souness.

Of course there are no guarantees with any appointment but you can look at most successful appointments and see the rationale behind them. Ashley didn't sit down and take a balanced look at where we're at and then scour the world for the right manager, he appointed the guy he knew from the casino. It isn't much more complicated than that.

Looking back it appeared more likely to fail than to succeed but Ashley has gotten lucky, he isn't reaping the benefits of an inspired decision.

[Monkeys Fist]

Three in the yes camp- it's nee sitter/stander debate tbf

[ewerk]

manc-mag, on 29 November 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

alex, on 29 November 2011 - 01:31 PM, said:

He might stay for less money imo. Not saying you could offer him half what he's on and he'd turn around and accept it but if he's enjoying life here and (most importantly) the team is being strengthened with additions then I could see him signing a new deal more or less in line with the wage cap you mention.

I would absolutely love that to be true and he should be offered every bonus under the sun if it did prove to be the case. A 'captains loyalty bonus' lump sum after year x wouldn't be a bad idea, as concocted sham wage deals go.

Isn't that sort of what was offered to Nolan? Less money but an end of season bonus dependent on where we finished.

[ewerk]

Monkeys Fist, on 29 November 2011 - 01:44 PM, said:

Three in the yes camp- it's nee sitter/stander debate tbf

Though I'm fairly sure that a venn diagram would reveal that all three of the yes men are standers.

[McFaul]

The Fish, on 29 November 2011 - 01:12 PM, said:

Happy Face, on 29 November 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

Appointing Pardew was little more inspired than appointing Kinnear tbh.  Neither were anything more than cheaper options who'd gladly tow the line to get an opportunity back in the game.  Our start doesn't mean Ashley saw anything in the bloke the rest of us didn't.

I think Pardew has a better reputation in football than that mate, but yeah, it wasn't an inspired decision that he made after deliberating and agonising over the options.

Has he?  I think he has now, but sacked from West Ham, sacked from Charlton, sacked from Southampton.  Goes through players wives more frequently than Kevin goes through clean underpants.  His CV is hardly glittering.

[McFaul]

Are the three who voted yes going to own up as to who they are?

[Monkeys Fist]

if they don't, name and shame mods