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Park Life

The Labour Party

245 posts in this topic

From what I see there are two distinct camps in Labour both believing they are the keepers of the flame and both with diverging ideas about the future.

 

Will it ever be a force again in British politics?

Edited by Park Life

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I thought there was no hope in the 80s and 90s but I think fatigue with the tories and Blair building on Smith's good work allowed a return. Unfortunately from my pov the party was dominated by people who just weren't /aren't left wing to any degree. The failure to undo the many tory crimes defined new labour for me despite a few good things.

 

Now we have a party who have some really good ideas which I think could be sold even in a mail/sun led country but not by Corbyn.

 

I don't want to see a Blairite centrist take charge because again, no tory crimes would be undone even if they did win so I suppose from my pov again they're screwed until a decent left wing leader emerges - that may be Lewis or Starmer but I'm not convinced yet.

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There seems to have crept in this corrosive idea about positioning ever since the Blair days when it should always have been about core policies. As you say with the correct leader and a challenging agenda the party could be re-branded and not continue on this path where it is losing grass roots support to UKIP.

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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/12/labour-leaked-poll-search-jeremy-corbyn-successor-sunday-times

 

 

''Long-Bailey, a former lawyer and the MP for Salford and Eccles, was viewed more favourably with the group describing her as “passionate”, “genuine”, “sincere” and “very smart”, although some saw her as “aggressive” and “rough”.

Speaking on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show, Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, denied that the party was vetting potential leadership successors. “I only saw this story last night,” he said. “People tell me that isn’t the case, it wasn’t road-testing leadership candidates. There was a range of shadow cabinet members that were so-called road tested. This is what we do in our normal run of political consultations.''

Edited by Park Life

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I don't think it'll recover. But then, it'll also only be terminal if another party takes up its mantle. Don't see UKIP doing that.

 

The longer we have Tory rule and Labour are the second biggest party, I guess the more likely it is that they'll recover.

 

I don't think they've worked out what went wrong yet though.

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I thought there was no hope in the 80s and 90s but I think fatigue with the tories and Blair building on Smith's good work allowed a return. Unfortunately from my pov the party was dominated by people who just weren't /aren't left wing to any degree. The failure to undo the many tory crimes defined new labour for me despite a few good things.

 

Now we have a party who have some really good ideas which I think could be sold even in a mail/sun led country but not by Corbyn.

 

I don't want to see a Blairite centrist take charge because again, no tory crimes would be undone even if they did win so I suppose from my pov again they're screwed until a decent left wing leader emerges - that may be Lewis or Starmer but I'm not convinced yet.

Take away the disastrous foreign affairs from the equation then I don't know what else you'd want from a government that Blair gave. Investment in healthcare, education and a sound enough welfare system. How was that so different from other western countries? The UK was a pretty decent place to live a decade ago, in fact I struggle to think of a better place to live personally. Now, not so much.

 

You always talk about a more extreme version of socialism. But you've done incredibly well out of the current system from what you've said. I sometimes wonder if you would really like the hit that a more left wing government would inflict on you. Maybe you would be fine with it, but the fact is pa large proportion of middle England never will be. The problem with Corbyn isn't just the man himself, although that's huge. It's his message which just doesn't connect with people in the 21st century.

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Similar situation in France where the left is backtracking and on the retreat.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alain-minc/the-end-of-socialism-in-f_b_4688269.html

 

''What can the Socialists do now? Vote against the President and find themselves in a group of 50 MPs? We now know that the far left/left equation can no longer claim a majority. The break with the far left is interesting. We have had a situation where two government parties are blocked by their extremist wings -- one far left, the other far right. Hopefully, France will look like a normal democratic country from now on whose future is decided by a battle at the center.''

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Agreed about Blair. Take away the war mongering, which was an absolute disgrace, and he wasn't that bad. Definitely to the left of what we've had to endure since. The problem is middle England wankers who decide elections will never vote for someone like Corbyn.

 

Looks likely that the party will split into a far left party and some kind of centre left outfit. To govern they would need to form a coalition with the snp and libdems. One of these needs to address the patriotic/anti immigration vote though. Something Corbyn will never do.

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Agreed about Blair. Take away the war mongering, which was an absolute disgrace, and he wasn't that bad. Definitely to the left of what we've had to endure since. The problem is middle England wankers who decide elections will never vote for someone like Corbyn.

 

Looks likely that the party will split into a far left party and some kind of centre left outfit. To govern they would need to form a coalition with the snp and libdems. One of these needs to address the patriotic/anti immigration vote though. Something Corbyn will never do.

UK has gone from being the most multi-cultural and tolerant society in Europe to one that has become resistant to further integration and immigration. I can never work out if this is because of Neo-Liberalism generally or that there has been a perceived too much immigration from the EU.

 

Blair didn't take the 7 year waiver that France and Germany took with reg to A7 (Eastern European) free movement.

 

Racism and lack of integration is far worse in France and Germany than it is in the UK. Economically the UK greatly benefited from immigration from the 80's right into the 00's. The crunch as far as I can see has only come in the last 5/8 years.

 

From the sub-continent to the HK Chinese and through to the Polish wave they have all had a positive impact on the UK economy.

Edited by Park Life

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UK has gone from being the most multi-cultural and tolerant society in Europe to one that has become resistant to further integration and immigration. I can never work out if this is because of Neo-Liberalism generally or that there has been a perceived too much immigration from the EU.

 

Blair didn't take the 7 year waiver that France and Germany took with reg to A7 (Eastern European) free movement.

 

Racism and lack of integration is far worse in France and Germany than it is in the UK. Economically the UK greatly benefited from immigration from the 80's right into the 00's. The crunch as far as I can see has only come in the last 5/8 years.

 

From the sub-continent to the HK Chinese and through to the Polish wave they have all had a positive impact on the UK economy.

Agree to an extent but you forget English people are too polite to be overtly racist. Doesn't mean they're not though.

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Britain is a generally tolerant place. But we've had a global recession and 7 years of Tory austerity. When times are tough,people always blame Johnny Foreigner. This isn't a uniquely British problem

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Take away the disastrous foreign affairs from the equation then I don't know what else you'd want from a government that Blair gave. Investment in healthcare, education and a sound enough welfare system. How was that so different from other western countries? The UK was a pretty decent place to live a decade ago, in fact I struggle to think of a better place to live personally. Now, not so much.

 

You always talk about a more extreme version of socialism. But you've done incredibly well out of the current system from what you've said. I sometimes wonder if you would really like the hit that a more left wing government would inflict on you. Maybe you would be fine with it, but the fact is pa large proportion of middle England never will be. The problem with Corbyn isn't just the man himself, although that's huge. It's his message which just doesn't connect with people in the 21st century.

Housing, privatisation, Union stifling and the promotion of immoral couldnt give a fuck entrepreneurship along side demonisation of the poor were the worst things the tories did. Blair did absolutely fuck all about any of them and the continuation of them over what is now approaching 40 years has shaped the society we have now.

 

A few new hospitals and schools paid for by a corrupt method of finance which continues to blight the NHS don't make up for that.

 

The UK is a good place to live if you're doing well, it should be a good place for a lot more.

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The last recession gave the arch manipulators like Trump and Farage all the ammunition they needed, in cahoots (in this country) with the vehemently anti EU Dacre and Murdoch publications.

 

Labour need another Blair type without the warmongering tendencies. UKIP will never take even the slightest advantage when they're lead by an Eddie Hitler lookalike who tells more lies than Trump,Spicer and Kellyanne Conway put together. Even though Labour appear to be beyond resuscitation in Scotland they're still only 13 seats short of the Tories. It's not out of the question that they can acheive parity once Brexit (on the face of it) is over in 2018 or so. If the economy in the shit Mrs May could well cop it for taking us out without access to the common market.

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Mr Corbyn hailed victory in Stoke as a "decisive rejection of UKIP's politics of division and dishonesty".

 

He added: "Labour will go further to reconnect with voters and break with the failed political consensus

 

 

 

I don't think he's listening.

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Mr Corbyn hailed victory in Stoke as a "decisive rejection of UKIP's politics of division and dishonesty".

 

He added: "Labour will go further to reconnect with voters and break with the failed political consensus

 

 

 

I don't think he's listening.

It's not just him that's not listening. Some people are just deaf to the reality of Corbyn. We're set for a tory government for a generation.

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He'll be gone in 2018. Even the unions aren't that stupid. Which gives Labour a year to come up with an electable leader.

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