Back to the future

[ChezGiven 0]

People need to understand the difference between what we expect of Ashley and what we believe Newcastle United should be going for. I expect that that Ashley will make an arse of things again and show no ambition. I believe though that this is not acceptable for a club of our size. We should be looking to get back into the top ten and beyond. If we don't manage it and we finish fourteenth or whatever fine then fine but it should not be because of a belief that we can't be better than the likes of Stoke or Birmingham (two much smaller clubs who have managed to be mid to top half of the premier league in their first season in the top flight).

Finishing just above the bottom three should be the ambitions of clubs the size of Burnley, Hull, Watford, Barnsley etc who don't have our stature or revenue streams and only make it into the top division once every god knows how many years.

There can be no guarantees of success and there is no expectation that we will be able to acheive a European finish (or even a top ten) but a lack of ambition to even try for that is a crime just as bad as forcing Keegan to sign players he didn't want to appease some foreign agent or appointing Joe Kinnear as his replacement. We should expect more and with the money we put into the club we deserve more. If you don't believe that, there are plenty of other clubs you could go and support who have no other ambition than to just survive in whatever division they are in!

 

What would constiute this ambition then? Saying 'we want Newcastle to push for a European place next season' in interviews with the national media? Or purchasing some decent players?

 

Even if he does spend (i admit, its not yet certain he will spend anything) 20m for example, i still see that as just getting the first team up to bottom tier of premiership standard. We could buy Milner back for 12m, then what?

[David Kelly 1115]

I would say making a decent amount of money available for transfers and wages to sign some quality players, and the club making the right noises about the direction we are heading. And just as importantly holding on to our better players rather than selling them for decent money and replacing them with inferior cheaper options.

I realise that nothing has happened to the opposite of this yet but I for one feel it's just a matter of time.

[TheGreatNUFCSwindle 0]

People need to understand the difference between what we expect of Ashley and what we believe Newcastle United should be going for. I expect that that Ashley will make an arse of things again and show no ambition. I believe though that this is not acceptable for a club of our size. We should be looking to get back into the top ten and beyond. If we don't manage it and we finish fourteenth or whatever fine then fine but it should not be because of a belief that we can't be better than the likes of Stoke or Birmingham (two much smaller clubs who have managed to be mid to top half of the premier league in their first season in the top flight).

Finishing just above the bottom three should be the ambitions of clubs the size of Burnley, Hull, Watford, Barnsley etc who don't have our stature or revenue streams and only make it into the top division once every god knows how many years.

There can be no guarantees of success and there is no expectation that we will be able to acheive a European finish (or even a top ten) but a lack of ambition to even try for that is a crime just as bad as forcing Keegan to sign players he didn't want to appease some foreign agent or appointing Joe Kinnear as his replacement. We should expect more and with the money we put into the club we deserve more. If you don't believe that, there are plenty of other clubs you could go and support who have no other ambition than to just survive in whatever division they are in!

 

 

This ...

[LeazesMag 0]

People need to understand the difference between what we expect of Ashley and what we believe Newcastle United should be going for. I expect that that Ashley will make an arse of things again and show no ambition. I believe though that this is not acceptable for a club of our size. We should be looking to get back into the top ten and beyond. If we don't manage it and we finish fourteenth or whatever fine then fine but it should not be because of a belief that we can't be better than the likes of Stoke or Birmingham (two much smaller clubs who have managed to be mid to top half of the premier league in their first season in the top flight).

Finishing just above the bottom three should be the ambitions of clubs the size of Burnley, Hull, Watford, Barnsley etc who don't have our stature or revenue streams and only make it into the top division once every god knows how many years.

There can be no guarantees of success and there is no expectation that we will be able to acheive a European finish (or even a top ten) but a lack of ambition to even try for that is a crime just as bad as forcing Keegan to sign players he didn't want to appease some foreign agent or appointing Joe Kinnear as his replacement. We should expect more and with the money we put into the club we deserve more. If you don't believe that, there are plenty of other clubs you could go and support who have no other ambition than to just survive in whatever division they are in!

 

quite refreshing to see people starting to agree with what I have been saying for years.

 

Nowt personal DK I'm talking about the general opposition I used to get when I used to say this all the time.

[OTF 6129]

Excellent totally realistic posts from dbsweeny and oztoonfan.

 

Argument well and truly won against the doomongers.

 

Quite brilliant.

 

 

They ARE the fuckin doom mongers !!! What else would you call people with LOW horizons?

Good point that like.

 

I don't have low 'horizons'. Trying to look at a realistic bigger picture. Like anyone I could spout nonsense about how the club should be run and where we should be in the league table, but the truth is that it all means nothing when reality clearly has the club heading in a different direction in the short term.

[LeazesMag 0]

Excellent totally realistic posts from dbsweeny and oztoonfan.

 

Argument well and truly won against the doomongers.

 

Quite brilliant.

 

 

They ARE the fuckin doom mongers !!! What else would you call people with LOW horizons?

Good point that like.

 

I don't have low 'horizons'. Trying to look at a realistic bigger picture. Like anyone I could spout nonsense about how the club should be run and where we should be in the league table, but the truth is that it all means nothing when reality clearly has the club heading in a different direction in the short term.

 

The word you are looking for is "expectation".

 

Anything lower than playing in europe for a club like us, is doom-monger stuff no matter how you look at it.

 

Shame we have had only one group of owners in 50 years who recognised it.

[OTF 6129]

As a good poster etc which you are Chez, I won't make an issue of "Mike"............but it isn't a case of spending money to finish 10th rather than 17th, its because he has sold players who could have put us in the top 6 anyway with a little more money and quality added.

 

What is the cost of his sales ? I would accept the financial position more readily, and any reasonable constraints, if he hadn't shown himself to be a total idiot in the vast majority of his actions already.

 

It's a good point you raise about selling players that could help to put us in the top 6; Milner maybe, Bassong maybe, and Given. The fact that Milner was sold while we were still in the Premier League is the most worrying thing to come out of those transactions. Given too is a worry, but more that he wanted to leave somewhere where he had invested so much time and effort, somewhere where the fans looked up to him because of the negative way in which the club was being run. Bassong's exit was probably a necessary cost owing the attrition of relegation.

 

I'm sure there will be a target to finish next season mid-table, but unless there is a decent amount of investment into the side I don't think it will be at all realistic. Teams like Birmingham are the exception to the rule, that crop up every now and then and usually quickly fade back into obscurity. Bouncing back to 2006-2007 Reading were exactly that. They finished the league in 8th position on 55 points (we were 13th on 43 points pre-Ashley). The next season Reading were relegated in 18th position picking up 36 points (we again picked up 43 points finishing 12th this time largely under Ashley).

[OTF 6129]

The word you are looking for is "expectation".

 

Anything lower than playing in europe for a club like us, is doom-monger stuff no matter how you look at it.

 

Shame we have had only one group of owners in 50 years who recognised it.

 

I agree with you.

 

The difference is that I know it's not possible to turn it around in one season. Your great expectation is wonderful and all, but there's no chance of it being realised in the short-term. There's no elevator to the top unfortunately, so we need to get started on building steps, one at a time. Truth is we wouldn't be where we are if we didn't have an owner who got too close to the edge whilst peering over. That drop for us corresponded with other clubs advancing (Tottenham, Aston Villa and Everton) so it means that we now have even further to ascend to get back to where we were in the early 2000s.

Edited April 14, 2010 by OzToonFan

[sammynb 2929]

I'll be surprised if Enrique is still with the club come the end of August and that will signal the club's true intentions.

[OTF 6129]

I'll be surprised if Enrique is still with the club come the end of August and that will signal the club's true intentions.

 

If he does go that will indeed signal their true intentions. You'd have to think that even Ashley would not be stupid enough to sell the club's best player, but noone could honestly rule it out. Not buying enough players is one thing, but selling your best players after being promoted would be batshit insane.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

keeping Newcastle in Premier League is a sensible goal for Chris Hughton

 

Brian Moore --- The Telegraph (Thought he was dead)

 

 

It is all so easy after the event and to label thus the triumph of Chris Hughton in engineering this return would be wrong.

People in football have short memories. It is a very short time ago that Geordie fans wept on the radio phone-ins and demanded a representation on the club’s board – make no mistake there was nothing inevitable about Newcastle’s rebound.

 

I believe that Newcastle’s success has been aided by the relative anonymity of the Championship. The full glare of the media has not been focused on the club, allowing them to work with less pressure and Hughton, the manager, has been able to get on with it.

 

The general opinion of Hughton is that he is a skilled coach and from that point forward he has added the accoutrement of management technique. The challenge of the Championship did not require a star name and for once in the club’s recent history, the pursuit of a big name and allegedly attractive football has been eschewed in favour of pragmatism.

 

Premier League football will reassert the pressures that hitherto Newcastle have failed to deal with adequately and the expectation of the fans must be tempered with realism. Simply staying in the top flight should be a sufficiently challenging goal for any sensible follower of the Toon.

 

It would be the height of folly to apply common football lore to Hughton’s stewardship when he tackles the forthcoming season and by this I mean the trite and usually ill-based vernacular reasoning that deems a manager has taken a club as far as he can.

 

The inevitable partner to this statement is an expressed desire for a replacement who will take a club to their rightful position – which may actually be a division or two lower than that achieved by the unfortunate departee. This evaluation is made by people who necessarily do not have possession of all the relevant facts. The board of directors have only partial knowledge of what has transpired during a manager’s tenure and the fans have even less insight into the true workings of the club.

 

It can take anything up to 18 months for a new manager to sort out structural problems and that is before he is able to make a significant start on improving a team’s overall position. As the average length of a manager’s time at a club is not more than three years it is almost always the case that a manager in reality has a very short period in which to achieve visible improvement.

 

If directors and fans were more realistic about what can be achieved they would be less likely to judge harshly what has been achieved. If they gave managers more time they would see better results and this is amply demonstrated by even a cursory glance at the correlation between success and tenure – the clubs with fewest managers over a length of time perform better than those who look for the next quick fix.

 

The financial power of a club is also nearly always relative to a manager’s record. A simple comparison of money available to buy players is reflected in the final league position of a club: those who spend more are higher than those who spend less . However, an even more reliable indicator is the amount a club can spend on players’ wages. It is in this, the available cash flow, that a club’s true financial strength is revealed because it has nothing to do with cute buying and selling, it is about ready cash.

 

If you look at the league table of wages you see the almost direct correlation between high-paying clubs and their league positions. Where a club is in the middle of the wages league it is almost always the case that its natural position is mediocrity and attempts to chase improvement by changing the guy at the helm are actually likely to make things worse.

 

What price would you get on a similar judgment on Hughton if Newcastle start next season badly? Oh, and by the way, have those Geordies who roundly and abusively dismissed Mike Ashley as a dodgy chancer apologised and thanked him for cash-flowing Newcastle’s wage bill during their successful season?

[Barney 0]

Oh, and by the way, have those Geordies who roundly and abusively dismissed Mike Ashley as a dodgy chancer apologised and thanked him for cash-flowing Newcastle’s wage bill during their successful season?

 

prick.

[ewerk 26140]

What the fuck does he know about football? Clueless arsehole.

[Guest alex]

the clubs with fewest managers over a length of time perform better than those who look for the next quick fix.

God man, how often does that cliche get trotted out? It's the other fucking way round. The managers who do well get to perform over a longer period of time. It's not rocket science. If Ossie Ardilles was still here presumably we'd have won about 10 trophies then? What a crock of shit.

[David Kelly 1115]

the clubs with fewest managers over a length of time perform better than those who look for the next quick fix.

God man, how often does that cliche get trotted out? It's the other fucking way round. The managers who do well get to perform over a longer period of time. It's not rocket science. If Ossie Ardilles was still here presumably we'd have won about 10 trophies then? What a crock of shit.

That comment and the one about thanking Ashley for keeping us going this season (erm is that the same Ashely who cost us our premiership status in the first place Brian?) shows exactly what this fuckwit knows about football. Wanker!

[Tom 13804]

To be honest I think the massive ticket sales and massive shirt sales might have had something to do with ''Keeping us going''.

[David Kelly 1115]

People need to understand the difference between what we expect of Ashley and what we believe Newcastle United should be going for. I expect that that Ashley will make an arse of things again and show no ambition. I believe though that this is not acceptable for a club of our size. We should be looking to get back into the top ten and beyond. If we don't manage it and we finish fourteenth or whatever fine then fine but it should not be because of a belief that we can't be better than the likes of Stoke or Birmingham (two much smaller clubs who have managed to be mid to top half of the premier league in their first season in the top flight).

Finishing just above the bottom three should be the ambitions of clubs the size of Burnley, Hull, Watford, Barnsley etc who don't have our stature or revenue streams and only make it into the top division once every god knows how many years.

There can be no guarantees of success and there is no expectation that we will be able to acheive a European finish (or even a top ten) but a lack of ambition to even try for that is a crime just as bad as forcing Keegan to sign players he didn't want to appease some foreign agent or appointing Joe Kinnear as his replacement. We should expect more and with the money we put into the club we deserve more. If you don't believe that, there are plenty of other clubs you could go and support who have no other ambition than to just survive in whatever division they are in!

 

quite refreshing to see people starting to agree with what I have been saying for years.

 

Nowt personal DK I'm talking about the general opposition I used to get when I used to say this all the time.

I'm actually a bit concerned at how much I agree with you on this now LM

 

The lack of ambition of some and the way the press seems to be ramming it down our throats that we've made mistakes in the past and should apparently be over the moon just to be back in the top flight is really starting to piss me off. I remember back in 80's when this seemed to be general attitude of the fans and board. That lead to us signing players like George Rilley, Pat Heard and Billy Whitehurst and ultimately almost led to us in the third league of English football for the first time in our history. Personally I don't want to see those days ever again but Ashley seems to think he can run the club like he runs his shops. If that's what he wants then he should have bought a smaller club that could deliver on the fans expectations under those constraints. We should never accept him dragging us down to that level! We should be aiming to compete for a European spot (the financial muscle of the top four might make the champions league impossible without one of them suffering serious financial meltdown or us getting some rich arab) but a wafa cup spot cannot be dismissed. We won't get there next season but have to aim for it!

[Christmas Tree 3997]

People need to understand the difference between what we expect of Ashley and what we believe Newcastle United should be going for. I expect that that Ashley will make an arse of things again and show no ambition. I believe though that this is not acceptable for a club of our size. We should be looking to get back into the top ten and beyond. If we don't manage it and we finish fourteenth or whatever fine then fine but it should not be because of a belief that we can't be better than the likes of Stoke or Birmingham (two much smaller clubs who have managed to be mid to top half of the premier league in their first season in the top flight).

Finishing just above the bottom three should be the ambitions of clubs the size of Burnley, Hull, Watford, Barnsley etc who don't have our stature or revenue streams and only make it into the top division once every god knows how many years.

There can be no guarantees of success and there is no expectation that we will be able to acheive a European finish (or even a top ten) but a lack of ambition to even try for that is a crime just as bad as forcing Keegan to sign players he didn't want to appease some foreign agent or appointing Joe Kinnear as his replacement. We should expect more and with the money we put into the club we deserve more. If you don't believe that, there are plenty of other clubs you could go and support who have no other ambition than to just survive in whatever division they are in!

 

quite refreshing to see people starting to agree with what I have been saying for years.

 

Nowt personal DK I'm talking about the general opposition I used to get when I used to say this all the time.

I'm actually a bit concerned at how much I agree with you on this now LM

 

The lack of ambition of some and the way the press seems to be ramming it down our throats that we've made mistakes in the past and should apparently be over the moon just to be back in the top flight is really starting to piss me off. I remember back in 80's when this seemed to be general attitude of the fans and board. That lead to us signing players like George Rilley, Pat Heard and Billy Whitehurst and ultimately almost led to us in the third league of English football for the first time in our history. Personally I don't want to see those days ever again but Ashley seems to think he can run the club like he runs his shops. If that's what he wants then he should have bought a smaller club that could deliver on the fans expectations under those constraints. We should never accept him dragging us down to that level! We should be aiming to compete for a European spot (the financial muscle of the top four might make the champions league impossible without one of them suffering serious financial meltdown or us getting some rich arab) but a wafa cup spot cannot be dismissed. We won't get there next season but have to aim for it!

 

Is exactly what virtually everyone has said

[David Kelly 1115]

People need to understand the difference between what we expect of Ashley and what we believe Newcastle United should be going for. I expect that that Ashley will make an arse of things again and show no ambition. I believe though that this is not acceptable for a club of our size. We should be looking to get back into the top ten and beyond. If we don't manage it and we finish fourteenth or whatever fine then fine but it should not be because of a belief that we can't be better than the likes of Stoke or Birmingham (two much smaller clubs who have managed to be mid to top half of the premier league in their first season in the top flight).

Finishing just above the bottom three should be the ambitions of clubs the size of Burnley, Hull, Watford, Barnsley etc who don't have our stature or revenue streams and only make it into the top division once every god knows how many years.

There can be no guarantees of success and there is no expectation that we will be able to acheive a European finish (or even a top ten) but a lack of ambition to even try for that is a crime just as bad as forcing Keegan to sign players he didn't want to appease some foreign agent or appointing Joe Kinnear as his replacement. We should expect more and with the money we put into the club we deserve more. If you don't believe that, there are plenty of other clubs you could go and support who have no other ambition than to just survive in whatever division they are in!

 

quite refreshing to see people starting to agree with what I have been saying for years.

 

Nowt personal DK I'm talking about the general opposition I used to get when I used to say this all the time.

I'm actually a bit concerned at how much I agree with you on this now LM

 

The lack of ambition of some and the way the press seems to be ramming it down our throats that we've made mistakes in the past and should apparently be over the moon just to be back in the top flight is really starting to piss me off. I remember back in 80's when this seemed to be general attitude of the fans and board. That lead to us signing players like George Rilley, Pat Heard and Billy Whitehurst and ultimately almost led to us in the third league of English football for the first time in our history. Personally I don't want to see those days ever again but Ashley seems to think he can run the club like he runs his shops. If that's what he wants then he should have bought a smaller club that could deliver on the fans expectations under those constraints. We should never accept him dragging us down to that level! We should be aiming to compete for a European spot (the financial muscle of the top four might make the champions league impossible without one of them suffering serious financial meltdown or us getting some rich arab) but a wafa cup spot cannot be dismissed. We won't get there next season but have to aim for it!

 

Is exactly what virtually everyone has said

Wrong. People like your good self have been suggesting that we should be looking to stay up this season and be happy if we finish 17. I am saying we should be aiming for the top seven and I would be happy finishing mid table. It's the ambition I'm talking about. You seem to be happy with the way Ashley is wanting to play it!

[Christmas Tree 3997]

People need to understand the difference between what we expect of Ashley and what we believe Newcastle United should be going for. I expect that that Ashley will make an arse of things again and show no ambition. I believe though that this is not acceptable for a club of our size. We should be looking to get back into the top ten and beyond. If we don't manage it and we finish fourteenth or whatever fine then fine but it should not be because of a belief that we can't be better than the likes of Stoke or Birmingham (two much smaller clubs who have managed to be mid to top half of the premier league in their first season in the top flight).

Finishing just above the bottom three should be the ambitions of clubs the size of Burnley, Hull, Watford, Barnsley etc who don't have our stature or revenue streams and only make it into the top division once every god knows how many years.

There can be no guarantees of success and there is no expectation that we will be able to acheive a European finish (or even a top ten) but a lack of ambition to even try for that is a crime just as bad as forcing Keegan to sign players he didn't want to appease some foreign agent or appointing Joe Kinnear as his replacement. We should expect more and with the money we put into the club we deserve more. If you don't believe that, there are plenty of other clubs you could go and support who have no other ambition than to just survive in whatever division they are in!

 

quite refreshing to see people starting to agree with what I have been saying for years.

 

Nowt personal DK I'm talking about the general opposition I used to get when I used to say this all the time.

I'm actually a bit concerned at how much I agree with you on this now LM

 

The lack of ambition of some and the way the press seems to be ramming it down our throats that we've made mistakes in the past and should apparently be over the moon just to be back in the top flight is really starting to piss me off. I remember back in 80's when this seemed to be general attitude of the fans and board. That lead to us signing players like George Rilley, Pat Heard and Billy Whitehurst and ultimately almost led to us in the third league of English football for the first time in our history. Personally I don't want to see those days ever again but Ashley seems to think he can run the club like he runs his shops. If that's what he wants then he should have bought a smaller club that could deliver on the fans expectations under those constraints. We should never accept him dragging us down to that level! We should be aiming to compete for a European spot (the financial muscle of the top four might make the champions league impossible without one of them suffering serious financial meltdown or us getting some rich arab) but a wafa cup spot cannot be dismissed. We won't get there next season but have to aim for it!

 

Is exactly what virtually everyone has said

Wrong. People like your good self have been suggesting that we should be looking to stay up this season and be happy if we finish 17. I am saying we should be aiming for the top seven and I would be happy finishing mid table. It's the ambition I'm talking about. You seem to be happy with the way Ashley is wanting to play it!

 

 

But its not a case of not having ambition, its just simply not realistic to aim to finish 7th next year.

 

I will remind you that the current top 7 looks like this....

 

Chelsea

Man Utd

Arsenal

Man City

Tottenham

Liverpool

Aston Villa

 

How on earth you think its realistic to aim for seventh spot and dislodge Villa or Liverpool in our first season back with a limited talent pool of players and a probable limited budget.

 

This is a weaker team than the one that got relegated. Most of those teams that were better than us then have strengthened while we've been away so simply surviving our first year back will be a great achievement, regardless of our name, reputation or past efforts.

[Happy Face 29]

Where has 7th come from?

 

I think I mentioned I'd rather aim for 7th than 17th but that was more to do with the poetry in the phrase than being what I really though was possible.

 

It's not unrealistic to aim to emulate Stoke, Birmingham or Fulham next season though is it? 9th or 10th?

 

Stoke and Birmmingham spent around £20m each since last summer.

 

Fulham spent....less.

[Happy Face 29]

How on earth you think its realistic to aim for seventh spot and dislodge Villa or Liverpool in our first season back with a limited talent pool of players and a probable limited budget.

 

This is a weaker team than the one that got relegated. Most of those teams that were better than us then have strengthened while we've been away so simply surviving our first year back will be a great achievement, regardless of our name, reputation or past efforts.

 

Do you think there's a clear split in the bottom 12 teams in terms of quality? Which teams in the bottom 12 are a cut above the rest?

 

The top 8 are a tough nut to crack. Everton, Spurs or Villa might drop down to the bottom half for the odd season but you'd never imagine any of them being relegated (a bit like us 5 years ago).

 

But after that group I see it as a pretty even fight between 12 clubs who can all afford to spend about £20m each per season.

 

We should aim to win that fight, no?

 

Also, are we weaker than when we got relegated? I agree we're weaker than we were at the start of that season. But we were a total shambles both on and off the pitch come January. I think the squad we have now would have (at least) run villa a lot closer than we did on the last day of the season.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Happy Face

[NJS 3956]

There has to be a difference bewteen idealistic ambition and reality.

 

The thrust of LM's argument has always been right - we should expect to be a club that can challenge. Unfortunately apart from a forlorn hope that Ashley will dig deep, there is no source of the necessary money.

 

Once you accept reality you can then talk about realistic ambitions to go with that - even allowing for West Brom and Forest/Whoever, I still think we will struggle to finish above a few teams next year having said that I think we should aim at a "Stoke" etc level but I think we'd be lucky to get there.

[peasepud 59]

I think we should aim at a "Stoke" etc level but I think we'd be lucky to get there.

 

So true yet so, so sad.

[LeazesMag 0]

the clubs with fewest managers over a length of time perform better than those who look for the next quick fix.

God man, how often does that cliche get trotted out? It's the other fucking way round. The managers who do well get to perform over a longer period of time. It's not rocket science. If Ossie Ardilles was still here presumably we'd have won about 10 trophies then? What a crock of shit.

 

aye. Stability doesn't create success, its success that creates stability.