Rayvin

I'm genuinely not sure the Tories are going to have it all their own way. They are definitely going to have to start taking the concerns of the less well off into consideration, and that will hurt them. And I would add that this is largely because they don't want Corbyn to get anywhere, at all costs. Because if he did, the whole fucking gravy train would come crashing down. Granted we're unlikely to ever see his election, as people blindly follow establishment media platforms (Daily Heil and the Sun foremost among them), but he's there as a fucking big threat to those in power of what might replace them if they don't start taking the concerns of ordinary people seriously. There is a line, somewhere, where the lives of enough people will become so fraught with economic woe that they will choose Corbyn for better or worse. The 'death of the middle class' is already being quietly reported on. We have middle class, university graduates struggling to find jobs, working on minimum wage of zero hours contracts - half of them now being raised in rented accomodation. How long exactly does anyone think that this number can continue to grow without some actual fucking consequences? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/19/middle-income-families-poverty-ifs-report http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/13/half-of-middle-class-children-now-being-raised-in-rented-accomod/ If the IFS is finding that Middle income families are struggling, then they are. They just fucking are. The system is failing - it's not just the Tories although they're balls deep in it - it's the whole fucking thing. It's Neo-liberalism (see also the EU and the US). Something has to change or Corbyn, or whoever follows after him, will eventually win. It's inevitable unless SOMETHING changes by virtue of the fact that the disillusioned and left behind are increasing in number. New Labour, for all their successes in the past, were Neo-Liberalism personified - which I can only think is the reason they stood by and supported austerity. Brexit was the first warning shot IMO, although that was largely from the working class - but given that the working class and the left behind middle class are going to be occupying the same economic space soon, that's going to be a large number of people who the system just is not working for, many of whom will be educated enough to do something about it and cross the line between the two groups. So no, the Tories are not going to come out of this any better than Labour are, but their reckoning is further down the line. They simply do not have the power (or the will, I would argue) to improve all of these peoples lives in a post-Brexit UK. So they will be punished, eventually.

That's better. It had no capitals as an enduring tribute to Essembee.

After all this, watch Smith win

I thought something changed!!

Yep. But given that I believe it'd be the same under anyone as Labour is going to struggle post-Brexit, I don't see that I (or anyone who votes for him) have anything to lose.

Clearly not everyone, sadly. I think the root here is that as soon as I left uni and started work, the system failed around me. All parties closed ranks around protecting the rich and their wealth, and many people I studied with struggled to find work, struggled to move out of their parents place, literally had the rug pulled out from under them. None of the parties represented us when that happened. Why the fuck should any of us stick by those parties now? Why the fuck? Brexit proves the same is true at the other end of the spectrum as well. The system as it used to exist is dying a death. I was going to vote Green for shits and giggles before Corbyn. He put forward something I could believe in. I do not and cannot believe those that came before him. Yes he's useless in a lot of senses, but what he stands for is more important. The message his presence sends is important.

They were all the same post-financial crisis. On austerity.

Yes but all that literally IS the self fulfilling prophecy. You've stated that Smith, who has nearly identical policies, would stand a better chance. Why? Because he's been picked from the pool of establishment acceptable candidates? The whole 'Corbyn is too far left' argument died when Smith came along. The issue now is that the PLP just don't want to be beholden to the membership. They want the control.

Oh good grief, we're coming full circle now. No they didn't. They went for broke on power. They're just as bad as Labour and the Tories. The whole system stinks.

Aye I checked both NO and here before signing up to one and while this place is a lot quieter, I've never regretted that decision Sunderland's problem is that they have no equivalent (that I'm aware of at least) to here.

How can you possibly know that though? The only argument I've really heard from the unsettled centre left is that Corbyn can't win. But you're just parroting what the media are saying when that comes out. It's a self fulfilling prophecy and it's really bizarre to see so many people jumping into it. And in answer to your other question, this is New Labours fault for me because they threw everyone who supported them under the bus when it came to the narrative post financial crash and the waving through of austerity. Weak leadership and direction from New Labour created a vacuum that the membership filled. I think the mistake here is thinking that something like this wasn't coming either way though - I would have struggled to vote Labour if we'd had more of the same in the next GE. I would have been looking for something else. Many others, apparently, would have been as well.

I basically share this background and philosophy. Not that I'm a banker, but I'm certainly not hard done by under the current system. I work with or around a lot of people who are though and I can't in good conscience vote in my own interests when I have it better than them. So I vote in theirs. I respect your position here fully, although I would say that I suppose.

Well we're through the looking glass now, we're going to have to see where it takes us. Which is exactly what should have happened last time, for better or worse. The tabloids are going to have to be careful though, as the Tories potentially watering down Brexit could leave them between a rock and a hard place with Corbyn. An attack on one will strengthen the other, if Corbyn plays his cards right.

The Guardian is currently firing out the bitter opinion pieces about Corbyn as we speak, so I'm guessing he's going to win by a landslide. The man outgunned the press, you've got to give it to him there. Outgunned the Labour establishment as well. All despite being unelectable. Seems clear to me that enough people think Labour would be better off as a pressure group than a political party now. And if that doesn't neatly sum up the extent of New Labour's failure, I don't know what does. This opinion piece though: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/20/im-taking-my-vote-elsewhere-if-corbyn-wins Sets out that what was Labour (the majority of voters on the Labour side, it assumes) will just move back to a centre left party and start over. So does any of this even matter? Unless of course Corbyn appeals to more people than everyone thinks he does. Which is the signal I'm picking up on from the general levels of panic we're seeing in the establishment.

What about just wank baskets? It's shot and to the point but I think it conveys everything it needs to

That has to be the winner like.

We'd get fucking sued over that one

A good old fashioned purge is exactly what we need.

Also true. Although if the working class see immigration as the thing 'keeping them down' and their goals align with the racist right, they may view it as them benefitting either way. To be honest, the centre-left really could have done more to see this off by actually listening to these people.

True enough, but they consider us to be 'elites' who care nothing for the challenges of their everyday lives. Which isn't entirely untrue...

That line from Trump junior a powerful one though. Their move to combine anti-immigration rhetoric with terrorism will win them a lot of votes, and that analogy will make sense to a lot of people. I think we're collectively going to have to accept that whether it's now with Trump or a few years down the line with whoever follows, the right wing working class backlash is coming.

Fuck me, that's not a good sign for Rooney. Looked way off the pace. I know it's just highlights of bad footage but even so...

It seems to work for a large enough proportion of people, mind

I find myself weirdly sympathetic to him as well. While also being able to acknowledge that he's a monumental arsehole It must be a gift on his part, that.

That's interesting, mind. I would suggest that quite a few people now would set out that Israel shouldn't have been created in the form it presently is - I don't think that makes anyone anti-semitic, just pragmatic. As for how it stands now, I agree that you'd have to at least be anti-semitically inclined to feel that the state should be eliminated after all this time.