[Politics]

11 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

People voted for Bexit across an entire spectrum of lies, from Lexit to outright racism. The people behind it were certainly far right, I wouldn't include Johnson in that group though personally. So I just don't think you can extrapolate from this that the majority of people in the UK are far right leaning, especially as the Tories did not win the popular vote. People are gullible and believed the lies, simple as that. They've belatedly wised up. 

 

Labour will first and foremost give us stability in their first term, competence. I hope you will be pleasantly surprised what they then go on to do., but we'll see. To add btw, I despised Corbyn, still do. But twice I held my nose and voted for him as the lesser of two evils. I would hope those at the left spectrum end of the Labour party could do the same, rather than being a prick like Jones trying to sabotage the party. 

 

Loads of the centrists tried to sabotage Corbyn, so I assume they were all pricks too. Also I voted for two centrist Labour administrations before this. My issue with Starmer, as you know because I keep saying it, is that he fails to deliver anything useful to me across the only two policies that can make any significant difference to the country. Should that change, consider my vote bought.

 

As for the Brexit point, I didn't say in any post that the majority of people were far right leaning. I said what you have just said, that they were capable of voting for far right insanity, as evidenced by Brexit itself. I think we agree on this point tbh.

[Politics]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Johnson wasn't voted in to deliver a right wet dream though was he? In fact, arguably the opposite. Brexit was never framed that way, and he promised "levelling up". The culture war bollocks almost exclusively came after he was elected. And even in 2019, more people voted for left leaning parties than right. 

Johnson was elected on a promise to please everybody and to do this he lied to everybody. His lies have ultimately been found out and will destroy his party. 

As fot GenZ, are they really all enamoured with the likes of Tate? I thought in the UK at least younger people, and increasingly the middled aged, were moving in favour of so called progressive parties. I guess you wouldn't accept Labour as being progressive, but I think you're just wrong on that. 

 

I think that's exactly why he was voted in. "Let's get Brexit done" was the framing of the entire campaign - and Brexit remains, all the way through, a far right wet dream. I don't really understand how him campaigning to deliver a hard brexit (pure enough for the right wing of his party, remember) is somehow something other than a highly desirable right wing fantasy that a lot of people voted for. None of us would have said in 2019 that Johnson's platform was about bettering lives or anything, it was entirely on Brexit.

 

Unsure of the leanings of the statesmen but Gen Z are definitely in the crosshairs, yes: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/society/2023/11/gen-z-most-conservative-generation-radical-youth

 

Labour are presently nothing because we don't know what they stand for. They're a series of assumptions that we're projecting onto them due to our own biases. But tbh I would still vaguely consider them progressive anyway, at least in some areas. That said, I've no idea which areas those are at the moment, just blind optimism tbh.

[Politics]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

No, I don't regard him in those terms. He is an authoritarian narcissistic psychopath with zero idealogical principles, an extreme version of Johnson. In the UK, people rejected Johnson once they finally realised what he was (I know it was obvious to us). I can't comment on the US, very different country. 

 

They voted him in to deliver a far right wet dream. There is no escaping that this country is absolutely capable of making batshit voting choices as long as they're on the right of politics. It is surely all the more believable now that Labour have undeniably moved to the right. The Tories went to the right, Labour did, that just moves the centre to the right too. So Braverman, I would argue, isn't far right now - she's right of the new centre.

 

It is what it is. Gen Z are in trouble too btw, really alarming surge in right wing sentiments coming from them. With the left collapsing as a cultural force, they're being left to channel their frustrations in the way instagram influencers like Tate tell them to. So I don't actually see much optimism for the death of the hard right, there' plenty coming for the Tories to run at.

[Politics]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

disagree. the majority want boring/sensible centrism and improving living standards

 

How come the majority voted for Brexit then? The majority have the potential to be incredibly stupid.

[Politics]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

No he wasn't, he was a popularist only interested in himself, zero idealogy. Gloom is right on this. Neither far right nor far left are getting elected in the UK. 

 

 

 

 

Would you consider Trump far right? Asking because he was of course a democrat and swapped over for opportunistic reasons too.

 

If we're calling Braverman far right, we have to call Johnson the same. Opportunist or not, he delivered the far right wet dream. Actions define us, not words.

[Politics]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

have you seen the latest polls? last time the tories worked strategically with the brexit party. reform are not being as helpful this time. they want the one nation tories out. they've already pulled them to the right but their job isn't done yet. 

 

if they are successful and some of the more catastrophic polling for the tories comes to pass, we could see the Lib Dems as the new opposition. i think this scenario is farfetched but reform could fuck them if the progressive parties form an alliance and people do vote strategically. 

 

what if labour then governs from the soft right, as you suggest?

 

what does the future look like for the tories with kemi badenoch, suella braverman or nigel farage as leader? this country will never elect a far right party, just as it will never elect one from the hard left.

 

Whole world is turning right wing, the left has lost. All that happens is everyone shifts to the right. The Tories will take up their new position as culture warriors first and foremost.

 

I absolutely believe that this country can and will elect a far right politician. I believe Boris Johnson was/is one.

[Politics]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

They're on to their third PM of the term since the Brexit deal was agreed, so we weren't that far off. Brexit destroyed the tories, possibly forever 

 

We were saying they wouldn't make it 6 months tbf. The Tories are not dead, they will never be dead. That is the only truth to take from all of this.

[Politics]

I guess we shall soon see what splendours Labour have in store for us.

 

Very little point in arguing about it though, none of us have a fucking clue what they'll do at this point and this board in general has a shocking track record with predictions anyway. Remember when we all thought that the Tories would never see out a full term after Brexit?

[Politics]

15 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

you're talking about Brown losing in 2010? that one was cyclical. people were ready for change and the tories successfully weaponised the global financial crisis. i can't blame brown too much for that. he got his chance at the top job too late in the end and he was always a bit too dour and a bit too scotish, despite doing some really good things as chancellor and pm (notably leading the world out of global financial meltdown) 

 

miliband fucked it in 2015, i agree. there was space then to oppose austerity and he bottled it. so much of it did hinge on his failure to eat a bacon sandwich and his apparent lack of a personality though - such a shame because he has shown he is a funny likeable bloke in the years since. it's sad so many politicians are scared to show their personality when they have one. 

 

the truth is though that elections are won in the centre. it's once you win power that you can move to the left and actually change the country for the better. i get why he isn't saying anything right now but i'll quick to judge him if he is chicken shit once he's in downing street too. 

 

the labour party has always been a broad church and i wouldn't say you're not welcome. but owen jones and the rest, who are only happy when throwing grenades at the leadership when we're finally on the brink of victory, can see themselves out. if they'd rather try to derail things than try to positively influence future policy then just fuck off. 

 

The centrists did the same to Corbyn for the entirety of his tenure. There was article after article about how unhappy they were and if I recall correctly there was a leadership challenge that they were obliterated in as well.

 

Taking the partisan glasses off for both sides here, the broad church is dead. Both sides have turned on each other and it is not going to be reversed. To his credit, Starmer has recognised this and instead of trying to placate the left and build bridges, has gone for the soft right. That is all that is happening here IMO. So Labour have shifted right to compensate for the collapse of the broad church, and due to the Tories heading farther right themselves.

 

The moderate left is now fairly homeless. The one upside for me is that I just do not care anymore. This is the first political conversation I've had in months, whereas it used to be daily. I am now free. The UK sucks, its going to hell, no one is going to prevent that, and I have accepted it. It's nice to re-run the old hits of course..!

[Politics]

That sandwich does indeed have a lot to answer for. I wonder how much of that loss was the sandwich, and how much was the Tories successfully attaching the SNP to Labour.

 

It is a bit of a shame tbh, I think Miliband could have done ok.

[Politics]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

exactly. owen jones and co are welcome to piss off and form their own meaningless reform-style party for the hard left where they can all sit in a circle and talk to each other about their principles. they had their go running the labour party and they fucked it. let the grown ups win power and start the slow process of rebuilding the mess the tories created in the last 15 years.

 

 

 

Precisely. See, Gloom gets it. He knows there's no place for someone like me in the Labour Party, and he's not afraid to say it. I respect that.

 

I came to the same conclusion my friend.

 

And yes, we may have had two complete failures to win an election from the grown up centrist wing of Labour prior to the left having a shot, but that simply isn't worth noting.

 

 

[Politics]

Just now, Dazzler said:

Let's not get carried away here. What are it's policies, first?

 

Based on this morning, a free half devoured mouse to every householder.

[Politics]

Just now, Dazzler said:

 

75% of those people will be dead by the time the next election rolls around since most of them fit into the same demographic in a lot of cases: nasty, old cunts.

 

I don't see his approach as cowardly, I see it as strategic - aye, it's not going to appeal to leftier lefties - but it is exactly what is needed to win an election. His position of keeping his mouth shut and letting the tories sink themselves is the correct one IMO. 

 

My cat could win the election at this point if it happened to lead the Labour Party.

[Politics]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Out of interest, will you be watching and enjoying the GE? Having a cheer at each Portillo moment? I certainly will. Make no bones about it, getting rid of the tories, maybe for a generation or even forever, means more to me than getting the current Labour party elected. Once it happens, we can take it from there. 

 

I don't know tbh. Maybe a bit but I pay so little attention now that I imagine it might just swapping a couple of texts with friends afterwards, not watching it as it happens. The Tories won, they pulled everything to the right, got everyone to accept Brexit, and have ruined the country. Now we're just rearranging deckchairs on the titanic. It's hard to celebrate it even if they do get wiped out.

[Politics]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Fair enough, I see your point but I do think you owe them the benefit of the doubt. Judge them on their actions after they are in a position to enact those actions, not before in some imagined future reality.

UK politics with FPTP is always about compromise. That's democracy Dennis.

 

 

 

I would argue though that since he broke all his pledges, I don't owe him anything. I voted for him to be leader in good faith based on those pledges. I know you are prepared to look past that, but I can't. He needs to earn back my trust and faith - and I'm open to him doing that tbh, but it's not just being handed over.

[Politics]

3 hours ago, Renton said:

 

Not incentivised to improve people's lives? Even if you're massively cynical of all politicians (and I challenge you to look at Starmers bio and come to the conclusion his motivations are insincere), it makes sense to do this. Otherwise, you end up like the Tories this time round, especially when you have no client media on your side.

 

What do you think motivates the labour party leadership? 

 

I am massively cynical of them now, yes. And Starmer broke pledges he made that I believed in at the time of voting for him, so naturally I am particularly cynical of him. Background be damned. I keep saying this next point but it doesn't seem to ever go in - if everyone to the left of you just went 'ah ok, yeah the Tories are better off out of power so let's just drop all our principles and settle for whatever Labour give us from a centrist standpoint', then there would never be ANY progress towards anything we want. Because there would be no votes to compete for on that side of the spectrum. The assumption would simply be that Labour had done it, re-formed the line, rebuilt the broad church, and that they could just stand still. Otherwise you tell me, is there any evidence in the entirety of human history for a political party being more radical than the entirety of the electorate that votes for it? If not, then why on earth should people to the left of Labour move in for them now if they ever want to see change? It makes absolutely no sense.

 

An electoral landslide as we're about to see will make them very confident that they have the right of where they are, and they will be reluctant to deviate from what has delivered it - which at this point is doing absolutely nothing while the Tories hang themselves. I predict this next Labour government will be marked in particular for being timid, avoidant of rocking the boat.

 

As for what motivates them, power. It can only be power because they're not about to achieve anything besides it based on what has been said so far.

 

Again, maybe all of this changes in the manifesto - or when they're in power. We will see. But I will be watching closely, and believe me I'll be revisiting these themes as we go through that electoral cycle. Hopefully I'll be saying "Damn this is great to see, all this positive change that is really transformative of people's lives". I doubt it, but I do hope for it.

[Politics]

9 minutes ago, Alex said:

Mate, I’m not exactly thrilled with the state of UK politics, or the world in general. But Labour giving the Tories a right fucking shoeing at the next general election is a definite positive in my view.  I don’t know where we’re headed off the back of that but it’s hit to be better than the alternative. 

 

I don't really disagree honestly, I just don't think any of the options on the table are meaningful enough to warrant me endorsing them as opposed to indicating that they're all failures in my eyes. Manifestos may change that but I doubt it based on what has been said.

 

It's not a big deal for me anymore tbh, I've just accepted that this is how it is. I won't cross my red lines but I also know that I'm completely irrelevant.

[Politics]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

they haven’t really said anything tbh. And the strategy of winning by default is working, why change it? Don’t give them any attack lines

while they implode.
 

This strategy worked for Biden and he was able to roll out his transformative inflation reduction act. It’s just a shame that American voters are too dumb to join up the dots.  

 

Biden looks like he might be at risk next time out though... becoming slightly concerned that the US might just be mental enough to bring Trump back.

[Politics]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

What platform? People are going on like they’ve announced a programme of Reaganomics. Their platform is doing things differently to the Tories and improving people’s lives in the process. They’ll be judged on that. Not promises they make 6 months before an election or empty statements about Gaza or whatever else the Corbyn won the argument twats are obsessing over 

 

Platform of "careful now"? Idk man, but whatever they're doing, I don't see why they'd be incentivised to change it. Maybe I'm wrong..!

[Politics]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

Win power first, improve lives later. Enough with being principled in opposition. Do what you need to do to win power and then restore public services and invest 

 

Yeah and if that's how it goes, I promise all of you, I'll hold my hands up. I really hope that's what we see. But I just feel like there's too much chance that they immediately start thinking "well we won on this platform, we should stay here so that we can win next time too". And then everyone will be telling me that we have to keep the Tories out next time, the risk is too great, etc etc.

[Politics]

I think it's important not to confuse 'better than the Tories' with 'good'.

[Sven Botman]

Fuck this season.

[Politics]

Yeah. And what he fails to really sell is the idea that there's any real alternative path to head down for people in his (or my) boat anyway. I keep coming back to just spoiling my ballot because I'm now so disengaged with it all, so devoid of hope, that I can't even get started trying to believe in any of it anyway. From any party or side.

 

So what he's really saying is that people like us should head into political nihilism. Which is where I am, but I'm not sure I'd advocate it for anyone else.

[Politics]

I mean yeah, I do agree with that. Despite having alignment with him in many senses I've never had a lot of time for Jones. It does all just seem performative.

[Politics]

I read it - it's more or less the same reason I chucked in membership ages ago but I have to admit I'm not sure why it's taken him so long to get to that point. Writing has been on the wall for anyone who thinks like him for some time now, nothing is 'new' about where we are. So on that basis yes, I suspect it's been done to maximise attention whereas it could and should have been done as soon as Starmer started abandoning the pledges that had him elected to leadership.