Rayvin
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Posts posted by Rayvin
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Just now, Kid Dynamite said:
Rather that than kill 20k, 30k or 40k for no reason at all. It's that logic that kept the Vietnam war going for so longI think the point is that there is no logic to this though. This is a case of a government lashing out because it feels it needs to be seen to be doing something, no matter how horrific it is. See also Afghanistan.
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1 hour ago, Kid Dynamite said:
I don't have the answer either. But I'm 100% certain what is currently happening isn't the solution.
We've seen enough wars to learn that all that Israel is currently achieving is radicalising a whole new generation of Palestinians
They have to continue with it now, they can't just "learn" that with 11k dead. I agree with you completely but if they stop now then they've killed 11k innocents for no reason at all.
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Oh ffs lads, I'm shit at stuff like this. I mean my honest inner lens on Broken Doll is something like this:
It'll be the avatar, amazing how much they influence things like this
Sorry man. So ok if @thebrokendoll can give us @strawb I would actually be genuinely curious for stalkingscientific purposes.-
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If Israel has decided that the only way it can keep itself safe is by destroying Hamas outright then we are all going to have to make peace with an incredible body count of innocents and children.
2 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said:Surely the dial has swung way past "Israel has the right to defend itself" by this point? Kids dying on unpowered ventilators is into war crime territory surely?
Problem is they've achieved jack shit so far in terms of defending themselves though. All they've done is kill 11k people, as far as I know they've not had any significant strategic successes versus Hamas leadership. So based on the incredibly narrow view that we seem to be moving down here, no, the dial has not swing past the right to defend themselves yet. They've achieved nothing but death so far.
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What was that saying in American politics, something about how your average voters see themselves as temporarily displaced millionaires or words to this effect? I put it down to that.
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2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:
Biden can’t, and won’t, call for a ceasefire.
What he can do is call for restraint. But I don’t see him doing this unless Israel pulls some mad Syrian/Russian style war crimes and levels the place entirely or drops chemical weapons or some shit.
Fair enough, then Biden and I have no issue.
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1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:
because you said one of the two options out of this mess was a ceasefire.
But that's not what my point actually is. My point isn't whether or not a ceasefire is possible, it's whether Biden at some point decides that he has to call for one because we have hit some predetermined number of deaths that are unacceptable.
I noticed Biden called for a 'Pause' last week, unofficially. Testing the waters, I felt. I was enraged by this because it means that somewhere in the US, someone is calculating what an acceptable number of deaths is before the US calls time on their support for what is happening. I'm really, really not calling Israel into this point at all - for me this is entirely about weak political leadership in the West. So if Starmer and Biden do not believe a ceasefire is the way forward, fine, but then they better still be saying that at 100k dead. Or 500k. Or a million. They better still be saying that as the last child in Gaza is killed. Because if they're not, then it means that they were just waiting for an acceptable number before saying anything. I find the very idea of that repellent and sickening.
None of which has anything to do with Israel's position which is, genuinely, far more sincere.
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Just now, Dr Gloom said:
how is a ceasefire a way out? Hamas has already said it will continue to launch terrorist attacks on Israel in this eventualityHow is that relevant to my point?
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Just now, Dr Gloom said:
You are suggesting that Israel is deliberately trying to slaughter as many innocent Palestinians as possible though, right? I didn’t read that bit wrong?
No mate, for fucks sake.
I'm not actually talking about Israel whatsoever here other than as the context upon which to talk about the US.
I am saying that there are two options out of this. One is a ceasefire. The other is the total annihilation of Hamas. Further to that, I am saying that at this point, with 10k dead, Biden better fucking believe that the only way out of this is the annihilation of Hamas, because if he turns around later at 20 or 30k dead and calls for a ceasefire, all I'm going to think is that for BIDEN PERSONALLY the key consideration in whether or not a ceasefire was the right course of action was how many innocent lives had been lost.
None of this has anything to do with Israel's view, which I strongly suspect is that the total annihilation of Hamas is achievable. Israel are not going to suddenly come up with a ceasefire as a policy suggestion on this though, so they will remain consistent to their view.
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Just now, Dr Gloom said:
you’ve lost me.
You said starmer hasn’t backed a ceasefire yet because Israel isn’t yet satisfied with the number of Palestinian civilians deaths, like slaughtering innocents is their objective.
i don’t know what your point is tbhCan you just try reading the fucking post. I'm not talking about Starmer anyway, I've wrote him off altogether previously.
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5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:
Honestly man. You think there’s some fucking war room in Israel where they are totting up a league table of civilian deaths? What’s wrong with you?
Not in Israel, no.
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7 hours ago, Renton said:
You genuinely think Biden wants innocent Palestinians killed to get an "acceptable body count"? I really hope you are wrong.
That is the only logical view if he at some point decides to back a ceasefire. That the only thing stopping him from doing it now is that not enough innocents have been killed to satisfy Israel.
He gets some respect from me if he sticks to his guns and pushes Israel to decimate all of Gaza in an attempt to destroy Hamas because at least that will mean it is genuinely the only option he thinks there is. If at some point he flips around and says we need a ceasefire cos 20k, 30k, 50k are dead, then no, he's getting nothing from me for that. All that tells me is that he knew ceasefire is what this would come to, and he was waiting for the death toll to hit a predefined number/global outrage to become unsustainable. Instead of, y'know, doing the thing he knew he should have done from the word go.
So right now I'm really hoping Israel are successfully going to permanently eradicate Hamas for the rest of time, because that's the hill Biden has chosen to die on.
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I believe that the Americans will eventually call for a ceasefire but only once the numbers of dead become truly incredible. Which will mean they've priced in an acceptable body count for Israel and are essentially enabling a revenge fantasy. If Israel somehow successfully "wins" here then I will admit I was wrong in this judgement, but if they're forced into an eventual climbdown due to the numbers of dead then there will be no redeeming Biden in my eyes because he will have known that this outcome was inevitable from day 1, and chose to let tens of thousands of people die first.
I don't include Starmer in this because he is a total irrelevance who barely exists even in the British political landscape, let alone the international one.
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I think it comes from this vain hope people have that there are politicians brave enough to do what is right rather than reducing everything to a calculation based on "real politik".
Dreamers tbh. The West has no spine, we need to stop hoping that one might reveal itself.
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I kind of get that the Tories do whatever it takes to retain power as a default but what is even the point of this beyond that anymore? They have no vision, no plans, they're just stumbling around reacting to things until they eventually get removed. Even trying to look at them through a Tory friendly lens, I don't understand why they wouldn't just want to get this over with and start a rebuild of whatever it is they think their party stands for.
Why go through the death throes, just end it ffs.
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Yeah so from what I can tell on this, a woman made an anti-trans tweet and was interviewed by Northumbria Police. Someone somewhere flagged this to the club who suspended her season ticket in line with their policy as ewerk mentions. And now apparently people are raging at NUFC for taking a pro-trans stance (they haven't) and for attacking freedom of speech (they didn't).
That's my read on it. Pissed off the right people for the wrong reasons.
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38 minutes ago, ewerk said:
The club has said it’s policy to suspend the membership of anyone under police investigation so it seems that is why this has happened rather than due to the nature of the alleged crime.
Watch this key detail get lost in the maelstrom of outrage.
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I continue to appreciate this thread @LongTimeAdmirer. Cheers 👍
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Agreed, we're missing Gordon's influence on the wing. Do we have anyone else who can play up top though?
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This is absolutely cringe inducing at this point.
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8 minutes ago, Ginolaandtonic said:
And also if someone could answer why the Jordanian and Egyptian borders are shut to fleeing Palestinians and why Hamas wouldn’t let them leave even if they could.
Because those countries can't sustain that influx of people, and moreover it isn't their responsibility to do so.
As for Hamas, they are a terrorist organisation that relies on continued strife to function. If there is no continued strife, they don't have a lot going for them.
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Just to be really clear G&T, as an ardent left winger, I do not consider myself to be "abandoning my Jewish friends". I think advocating for an end to Israeli oppression of Palestine is the only way any of the people on either side of this can ever become safe and live without the spectre of death hanging over them. I may be 'wrong' in my interpretation of that but it is 100% motivated by the desire for to protect the lives and humanity of both sides. It's not an either/or, it's "both".
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What is the penalty if we breach FFP btw?
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PIF should buy a stake in various firms that sponsor other premier league clubs and force them all to go through the same shit they're asking us to do.
This all feels fanciful from the PL to be honest because so far we've been entirely clean about this as far as I can tell, and in the end if we really wanted to start screwing them, we would find a way.
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Middle East Crisis
in General Chat
Posted
I haven't suggested this.