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Rayvin

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Posts posted by Rayvin

  1. 1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

     

    yup, that’s all I was saying. It’s easy to take a principled stand when you don’t have skin in the game 

     

    What would we do if we were Palestine? I don't understand why this question isn't asked. Imagine we were brutalised under apartheid, with our oppressor frequently and randomly killing our civilians over the years, including 2000 children. What would the British response to that be?

  2. 1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:


    ok, babies murdered, and people beheaded, maybe.

     

    this is from Reuters, which I think we can all agree is a trusted source 

     

    JERUSALEM/TEL AVIV/BRUSSELS, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Israel's government showed U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and NATO defence ministers graphic images of dead children and civilians on Thursday, saying they were killed by Palestinian group Hamas as it builds support for its response.


    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office also released on social media a picture of a dead infant in a pool of blood and the charred body of a child, part of an apparent effort to stoke global anger against the Gaza militants over Saturday's attack.

     

    Blinken, who flew into Tel Aviv earlier on Thursday, told reporters he was shown photographs and videos of a baby riddled with bullets, soldiers beheaded and young people burned alive in their cars or hideaways.

     

    "It's simply depravity in the worst imaginable way," Blinken told a news briefing. "Images are worth a thousand words. These images may be worth a million."

     

    Netanyahu has vowed to annihilate Hamas following its deadly assault on unsuspecting Israeli communities on Saturday, which killed more than 1,300 people, the deadliest attack on Israel since it was founded in 1948.

     

    I'm not here to say that any of that isn't barbaric. But I think I might be here to say that Israel has done a lot of similar stuff over the years, and if as Renton says we're talking about a huge and devastating long term effect on the psyche of Israel based on what has just happened, presumably we have to accept that a huge and devastating long term effect has already been had on Palestinians. That huge and devastating effect is definitely part of why we're here.

     

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12283431/CCTV-shows-Palestinian-boy-shot-dead-Israeli-sniper-unarmed.html Israeli sniper shoots and kills a teenage boy as he tries to give blood.

     

    https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-child-killed-west-bank-violence-9360cf006193ab8f1139c4fdb43e4f73 Israeli soldier shoots and kills a toddler 3 months ago.

     

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel Israeli soldiers shoot a 10 year old girl dead as she's running away, confirm the kill by emptying their magazine into her, and then claim that they would have killed her even if she was 3 years old.

     

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/10/video-appears-show-cheers-israeli-sniper-shoots-palestinian Israeli sniper executes an unarmed Palestinian man to cheering from his comrades, just because he could.

     

    Since 2000, Israeli soldiers and settlers have murdered 2,171 Palestinian children. On top of which, 139 Israeli children have been murdered by Palestinian militants.

     

    To say this state of affairs is tragic is actually a huge understatement. The world should be utterly appalled at the decades of horror and torment that both sides have lived under.

     

    I think my point in all of this is where Anthony fucking Blinken has been for all of the atrocities going the other way. Perhaps if he and others had stood up and done something about it, we wouldn't be where we are right now, drowning in yet more death and misery.

    • Like 2
  3. 2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:


    I don’t know where you saw that. I saw Nomara tweet that, unsurprisingly. 
     

    It’s reported on Reuters. An Israeli official was describing scenes she’d seen. 

     

    I’m not trying to point score. I’m tryinf to give you a sense of what Renton meant about what these attacks have done to the Israeli psyche.
     
    Reuters are also reporting Israel has released photos of a dead baby and a charred infant. This article was updated just four hours ago. 

     

    https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-ministers-shown-horrific-video-hamas-attack-2023-10-12/

     

    https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html

     

    Here is the Israeli government walking back the beheading claim. The Israeli official wasn't describing things she had seen, she was describing what an Israeli soldier had told her he had seen, apparently.

     

    I have seen those images of the poor child too - clearly a lot of children are dying in this moment. Many children died before this moment too. All of it is absolutely despicable and unforgiveable irrespective of who carried it out.

  4. 17 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:


    conflating Jewish people with the state of Israel is antisemitic. I don’t know people hate Jews so much. But Jews were hated and persecuted for centuries before the creation of the state of Israel 

     

    Give this a listen. David Baddiel puts it better than I ever could 

     

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0gl7bfn?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

     

    I'm not disputing that, I am simply saying in the case of Palestine, I think there is an actual reason for Palestinian Arabs to be very hostile to Israel - and consequently for the less well educated amongst them to broaden that out to Jews in general. They see themselves as victims being persecuted so they build up resentment and hatred.

     

    I don't think considering this as the same sort of antisemitism as that which Jewish people have suffered for centuries at the hands of Europeans in general is necessarily a helpful approach. It suggests for instance that there is nothing that Israel could do to influence this situation to a better outcome - when in fact its own hatred of Palestinians is complicit in fuelling a lot of this.

  5. 12 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:


    I’m surprised that you’re surprised. People have always hated Jews. And antisemitism isn’t about hating Israel, it’s worth remembering 

     


     

     

     


     

     

    Do you think there's any possibility that a lot of these reactions might be coming from the wider indifference to the deaths of Palestinian people and the implications of Israel's apartheid? This is a sincere question rather than a rhetorical one.

     

    I'm not sure this is as simple as they hate Jews just because they hate Jews. I think they would argue they hate Jews "because..."

     

    Not saying that makes this situation any better for British Jews who have nothing to do with this of course, it's completely misplaced hatred either way that wrongly focuses on ethnicity instead of government policy.

  6. 21 minutes ago, Renton said:

    Heard a clip on the radio a father had just heard his missing 8 year old daughter had been found. He cried with joy. Hold on I thought, what did "found" mean? She was found dead. Here's the thing, he knew this, but was relieved for her because the alternative was worse. And I got that.

     

    This was no ordinary terrorist act, you can't understate the profound effect this will have had on Israel's psyche. Like all of us I'm in despair but I'll not be too quick to judge the retaliation, which will be disproportionate in terms of numbers but not savagery.

     

    450 children so far mind.. 

  7. 1 hour ago, The Fish said:

    Was in London with work today, while we were out for lunch near Paddington my Jewish boss saw some violently antisemitic graffiti. Not anti-israel, not anti-zionist, antisemitic. Really upset her.

     

    Really worried for the very few Jewish people I know. 

     

     

     

    Honestly am a bit taken aback by the the response from UK based Palestinians. Its not like British Jewish people have anything to do with this - they'd be better off going for the Britain itself in terms of culpability.

  8. Just now, Dr Gloom said:

     

    it depends on how it all unfolds. israel isn't known for restraint. 

     

    It's not but it does so far at least appear that they are being somewhat restrained. Whether due to hostages or KSA, I'm not sure - but starving Gaza permits time for conversations to develop.

     

    Of course it's also possible that they were so unprepared for this that they need to buy themselves time to mobilise.

  9. 4 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

    I was in a prick like manner trying to link you to “mackem like behaviour” spuriously just for a laugh.

     

    Unforgiveable.

     

    I am actually sorry, I can see it now but apparently my radar is well off for humour this morning :lol: 

  10. 3 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

    Isn’t that a bit like imagining something then getting annoyed by it?

     

    Idk how well I worded that but to be clear I'm not saying that's my present sentiment. It would become my sentiment if he actually did leave for Liverpool. And it wouldn't so much be annoyance as 'oh I guess he's not quite what I thought he was after all'.

  11. 3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

    hamas are just pawns in this. it's about the big boys  - iran, israel and saudi

     

    If that context is true, then for all the horror of this specific moment I would say that the wider moment we are in is actually a potentially promising turning point for the future. If KSA does normalise with Israel it might encourage other similar actions from surrounding regional players, and push Iran into a position of greater isolation and, dare I say it, may force them to soften over the long term too. If they do this, if globalism wins, then this whole conflict may eventually just run out of steam - and once it does, it might mean that Israel is able to properly create a state in which Palestinians aren't treated as second class citizens as a security precaution. That in turn may eventually lead to the opportunity for everyone to forgive and heal.

     

    Maybe I'm being naive and delusional, I am after all a huge believer in interdependency being the great peacemaker of the modern age, but I feel like there may be a path there.

  12. 4 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

     

    Surely this could be counter-productive to Hamas though, as it's hardly going to make Israel look like the aggressors in the conflict - and so far they have been very restrained compared to historical conflicts (partly due to the hostages, but perhaps due to ongoing discussions with KSA too?). If both KSA and Israel are serious about normalisation then it could end up working against Hamas, as it's effectively driving them into each others arms. KSA will surely condemn the actions of Hamas, and could even align itself with Israel in the conflict which weakens Hamas even further.

     

    Yeah but they might consider that the unifying notion of opposing Israel across all Arab nations is diminishing either way as the world moves on, and so this is a bid to put some emotional information into the mix to try to influence that - it could speed it up sure, but equally it might be the only thing that puts the brakes on it. They've presumably been hanging their hat on the ongoing development and growing power of Middle Eastern nations to eventually counterbalance and then eliminate Israel, but if globalisation drives diplomacy and interdependency then that's far less likely to happen. In the end, religion isn't going to matter as much as profit and power.

  13. 2 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

     

    Aye strategically it makes complete sense, but morally it's a bit of a tit for tat. At least by announcing this Israel have backed themselves into a corner to honour it if and when the hostages are returned. I think they are hoping that the Palestinian people will rise up and demand Hamas do the right thing for the good of Palestine, but I doubt Hamas will give a shit.

     

    Was thinking to myself earlier though, why Hamas have even taken hostages to start with - googled it and apparently the official reason is to force Israel to give warning ahead of attacks on residential areas in Gaza so that people can flee. If any part of that is true then Hamas clearly want to avoid as much collateral damage as they can on their side too. I guess it's tempting to think that they're indifferent to the suffering of their own people in this too but they may simply just believe, horrifyingly, that this is worth the deaths of their own people - as much as they might like to avoid them.

     

    I suspect beyond that though, Israel has demonstrated in the past how highly they value their own people (definitely in comparison to Palestinian lives) so taking and spreading out these hostages and securing them in areas where Hamas is directing attacks or operating forces Israel to choose between killing their own people in air strikes, or sending in troops to extract them at a probable far higher cost in Israeli lives in the end.

     

    Taking the hostages means Israel has to be at least somewhat more restrained than it would be if it was just dealing with Palestinian lives. But that point aside, what on earth is even the end game for Hamas in this? They can't possibly think that this is going to take them anywhere near to the dismantling of Israel. Just a reminder that they're there and that they're still mad? Or maybe it's to damage morale in Israel?

     

    In the end, the only thing that really makes sense to me as a cause is the Saudi line. That this had to happen to prevent Saudi from normalising with Israel. I just don't understand what else can possibly be achieved here by Hamas other than that one thing.

  14. If he would go to Liverpool then his whole persona that he's set up since joining us is essentially a marketing gimmick, and in that case I'm far less invested in him by default. Moreover, them throwing £100m at us for Bruno does not save them from us in the long run.

  15. So just looking at the current status of things this morning, Israel have announced this:

     

    image.png.47ed13808a2ca6dc8ab8b8c4da9ece61.png

     

    Which in the context of the war away from moral concerns makes total sense strategically. Hamas of course won't relent either, so I'm wondering how many Palestinian lives are vulnerable here.

  16. Why on earth would you join the Tories... I think Renton is spot on, she's a career politician trying to preserve her livelihood.

     

    Doesn't change the fact that the SNP have treated her disgracefully of course.

    • Like 1
  17. 8 minutes ago, Renton said:

     

    I mean, ultimately its all tribal in one way or another. But what I am keen to point out here is that in this case it is very much about religion. Why? Because there is almost no other instrument that can brainwash people to undertake such acts of barbarism and self destruction. You won't get me to die for my country. There are millions of arabs who will die for their religion, and some crave it. 

     

    Again though, I think Russia's ability to compel people to invade and brutalise another country (very similar acts of aggression) - and indeed Ukraine's ability to compel people to defend their country rather than just flee - suggest that religion is not at all the only thing that could produce these outcomes. There are all sorts of narratives that we might accept to push us to do this. 

     

    I'm tempted to say the issue is more about a widespread lack of critical thinking skills than it is about anything else. Or maybe it's just baked into our social DNA, that we build group bonds around abstract concepts that then come to define our identity, and treat attacks on those identities with serious hostility.

     

    I appreciate that this is adjacent to the main topic at hand here although I have tried to keep my posts on it somewhat relevant to the matter at hand, but this probably isn't the place for a philosophical conversation on religion in the end.

  18. Just now, Renton said:

     

    But why because not all wars are religious does that mean none are? Religion IS culture in this context. The true motivations of Putin though are much les transparent to me, but he is the sole cause of that conflict (agreed its not religious). 

     

    Religion certainly is a significant component part of culture, but I suspect culture is the unifying theme in all cases where religion is implicated and indeed where it is not. Russia has a culture built up around strong man politics, a view that Russia is on its own against a hostile world and needs to defend itself proactively. China has a persecution complex baked into its culture. The US has some bastardised version of white saviour complex and exceptionalism.

     

    These things have and will continue to push these countries to undertake violent acts. However at this point I think you'd be more inclined to suggest that those in power are just manipulating narratives that they're pushing - and I think my point in all of this is that religion is just another one of those narratives.

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