Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jimbo

Irish teen banned from having an abortion

Recommended Posts

I don't agree with abortion, but this case is tragic for all concerned

 

A 17-year-old pregnant Irish girl is appearing in the High Court in Dublin to press for the right to travel to Britain for an abortion.

 

Doctors have told the girl that her four-month foetus will not live more than a few days beyond birth.

 

She is in the care of Ireland's health service which has issued an order stopping her from going to Britain.

 

But a lawyer for the girl argued that the health authority had no right to stop her travelling.

 

Eoghan Fitzsimons told the court that police had responded to a request by the Health Service Executive (HSE) to prevent her leaving the country, saying they could not and would not do so without a court order.

 

Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where the mother's life is threatened by a medical condition or suicide.

 

Thousands of Irish women get around the ban by privately travelling to the UK, where abortion was legalised in 1967, to undergo terminations.

 

'Distraught'

 

Mr Fitzsimons said it was inhumane to expect the girl to carry the foetus for the full nine months only for it to die.

 

 

No woman should have to endure the trauma of carrying to full term a child who will not live more than a few hours

Pro-choice campaigner

 

She was deeply distressed by the diagnosis and a travel ban was tantamount to degrading treatment, he was quoted by PA as saying.

 

The teenager, known only as Miss D, comes from the Leinster region and has been under the guardianship of the HSE - Ireland's national health service - since March.

 

Even though she is in care, the girl's mother, known as Miss A, has come out in support of her daughter's wish, as has her boyfriend who launched the legal appeal on her behalf since Miss D is still a minor.

 

Miss D was informed last month that her foetus has anencephaly, a condition which means that a large part of the brain and skull is missing.

 

Babies with anencephaly live a maximum of just three days after birth.

 

A psychiatrist appointed by the HSE said that the teenager was distraught at the diagnosis, but not suicidal, and therefore did not meet the criteria for being allowed a termination.

 

Protest rally

 

Both sides in the case have agreed that the case be rushed through the court system as soon as possible.

 

Pro-choice groups Choice Ireland and Alliance for Choice were planning a rally outside the court to show support for the teenager.

 

"No woman should have to endure the trauma of carrying to full term a child who will not live more than a few hours," a spokeswoman for the groups said.

 

"Miss D is another case of several that have gone before and will come again that highlight the flaws in Irish abortion law. Without legislation to deal with this issue, yet more Irish women in difficult situations will have to be dragged through the courts," she added.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's awful. They should let the poor lass have the abortion - ridiculous putting someone through something like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mysoginist religious intolerance.

 

While supporting this woman's rights in this case I have to say abortion is a horrible thing - I think a lot of "social" abortions in this country could be avoided and even as an anti-religious lefty I always feel uneasy at the unquestioning support for it.

 

 

Having said that it boils down to the old classic - its all about money - as the article mentions thousands of "rich" irish women take a mysterious holiday to Britain every year - the same thing would happen in the US if the idiots get their way and reverse the law there - the rich will head for Canada and the poor will die in the alleyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest alex

Mysoginist religious intolerance.

 

While supporting this woman's rights in this case I have to say abortion is a horrible thing - I think a lot of "social" abortions in this country could be avoided and even as an anti-religious lefty I always feel uneasy at the unquestioning support for it.

 

 

Having said that it boils down to the old classic - its all about money - as the article mentions thousands of "rich" irish women take a mysterious holiday to Britain every year - the same thing would happen in the US if the idiots get their way and reverse the law there - the rich will head for Canada and the poor will die in the alleyways.

Very true. I'm pro-choice. Being pro- or anti-abortion is another matter (it's down to each individual case imo and it's never/very rarely 'black and white').

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mysoginist religious intolerance.

 

While supporting this woman's rights in this case I have to say abortion is a horrible thing - I think a lot of "social" abortions in this country could be avoided and even as an anti-religious lefty I always feel uneasy at the unquestioning support for it.

 

 

Having said that it boils down to the old classic - its all about money - as the article mentions thousands of "rich" irish women take a mysterious holiday to Britain every year - the same thing would happen in the US if the idiots get their way and reverse the law there - the rich will head for Canada and the poor will die in the alleyways.

 

Where's that coming from, like? Anyone I've ever discussed it with, who's been pro-choice has felt it was a hugely difficult issue. Most of them not prone to too much deep thinking on other issues.

 

Also your opening line is completely out-dated, much like the offending legislation in this instance. Bollocks about this being a class issue, too. Positively topsy-turvy land for you today tbh. ;)

 

Oh, and - DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF THING!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mysoginist religious intolerance.

 

While supporting this woman's rights in this case I have to say abortion is a horrible thing - I think a lot of "social" abortions in this country could be avoided and even as an anti-religious lefty I always feel uneasy at the unquestioning support for it.

 

 

Having said that it boils down to the old classic - its all about money - as the article mentions thousands of "rich" irish women take a mysterious holiday to Britain every year - the same thing would happen in the US if the idiots get their way and reverse the law there - the rich will head for Canada and the poor will die in the alleyways.

 

Where's that coming from, like? Anyone I've ever discussed it with, who's been pro-choice has felt it was a hugely difficult issue. Most of them not prone to too much deep thinking on other issues.

 

Also your opening line is completely out-dated, much like the offending legislation in this instance. Bollocks about this being a class issue, too. Positively topsy-turvy land for you today tbh. ;)

 

Oh, and - DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF THING!

 

I meant unquestioning from those who see themselves as "liberal" in the wider sense of the word - I get the impression sometimes its "treason" to feel uneasy about the act itself.

 

 

If the lass was rich (for want of a better word) then it wouldn't have come to court - thats what I meant - she would already have been here and had it done. Exactly the way the "rich" in this country always found a safe way pre-legalisation.

 

On my opening line do you deny that Ireland's constitution and legal system is a teeny bit Catholic influenced?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pro-choice tbh, although I heard somewhere today that they've got a shortage of surgeons willing to do them now.

 

Probably due to threats more than any ethical reason I'd guess (if it's true).

 

Where abortion is illegal it doesn't stop it just pushes it underground which in turn increases mother deaths and injuries and often increases late term terminations (as it's all illegal anyway).

 

About the only think I don't agree with is the age of the fetus (in the UK anyway) could do with being moved back a few weeks (younger that is), as I think currently it's crossed the line between a potential baby and a baby if done at the last legal second.

 

But if the baby is going to die anyway though I don't understand why this isn't a medical exemption case though. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mysoginist religious intolerance.

 

While supporting this woman's rights in this case I have to say abortion is a horrible thing - I think a lot of "social" abortions in this country could be avoided and even as an anti-religious lefty I always feel uneasy at the unquestioning support for it.

 

 

Having said that it boils down to the old classic - its all about money - as the article mentions thousands of "rich" irish women take a mysterious holiday to Britain every year - the same thing would happen in the US if the idiots get their way and reverse the law there - the rich will head for Canada and the poor will die in the alleyways.

 

Where's that coming from, like? Anyone I've ever discussed it with, who's been pro-choice has felt it was a hugely difficult issue. Most of them not prone to too much deep thinking on other issues.

 

Also your opening line is completely out-dated, much like the offending legislation in this instance. Bollocks about this being a class issue, too. Positively topsy-turvy land for you today tbh. ;)

 

Oh, and - DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF THING!

 

I meant unquestioning from those who see themselves as "liberal" in the wider sense of the word - I get the impression sometimes its "treason" to feel uneasy about the act itself.

Is that feeling warranted? Just curious. It sounds like a very "studenty" viewpoint to me, and I think you're older, so most of your peers wouldn't be students?

 

If the lass was rich (for want of a better word) then it wouldn't have come to court - thats what I meant - she would already have been here and had it done. Exactly the way the "rich" in this country always found a safe way pre-legalisation.

I don't follow, is it simply because of the lack of private healthcare? She could have just kept her mouth shut when she found out about it and made her decision and gone over, or maybe she expected them to pay for it too? The way the health service have dealt with things is obviously another matter.

 

On my opening line do you deny that Ireland's constitution and legal system is a teeny bit Catholic influenced?

No...not at all.

 

I haven't talked to anyone back home about this, so I've no idea of the general feeling, but I wonder if this might finally see a much needed change to the constitution. The last time there was a big case like this (that I can remember) it was too early, but to think that this is about religious intolerance today, is wide of the mark IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oba:

 

Yes I'm older ;) but I'm just going by what everyone would go by - friends and people I know - I certainly know that the "its horrible but okay" approach is the view of the female friends I have and they've said to me that they feel sometimes reluctant to state that clearly.

 

I got the impression from the case that the lass was in care and it sounds like what would go down on other threads here as a teen/charva pregancy. If thats the case then it would be easy for the authorities to take control and I doubt she would have the means to get here easily - all I was saying was that if this were say Bono's daughter (sorry famous rich irishman cliche) then the authorities wouldn't have got within a million miles of it - the abortion would have happened.

 

I think its very naive to reject the role of the catholic church in irish politics. The divorce and abortion laws and the until relatively recent ban on contraception stands out to me as pretty obvious. You could just say this reflects a more "conservative" society in general but I don't think thats true. My boss is Irish and from what he's said the older generation especially are in general very religious in their view of life. The fact that Mother Theresa travelled to Ireland to campaign against the legalisation of divorce also shows thats the case imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

;) I was answering your sarasm with some of the same, you bell end. Obviously the Irish constitution is up to it's bloodied arse in church power, but what remains in the constitution no longer reflects the views of the general public (in my opinion). If you think about it, your examples are proof of that.

 

:P

 

I'd love to know where these deeply religious souls are hiding out btw, I have a fair snapshot of a wide range of classes and areas of Ireland, and I don't see it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the class bit, you've now pushed it to the extremes of a young girl in care and the richest of the rich. Kind of rendering it a moot point? I'm not sure she's in care btw, they used similar language to talk about the last case I remember and I've only skipped over this article, but weren't the family mentioned?

 

And I know what you're saying about it only being our personal experiences, same here obviously, but it seems you are saying that we agree about it being a horrible decision, people I know agree, and the women you know agree. So who is it disagreeing? Would have to be a fairly thoughtless bloke to argue it, surely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd love to know where these deeply religious souls are hiding out btw, I have a fair snapshot of a wide range of classes and areas of Ireland, and I don't see it.

 

Anecdotes from my boss.

 

I always thought my Mam was a pretty "good" catholic (despite doubting a lot of the dogma) but his description of his Mam (lives in a small town 50m west of Dublin) makes me think mine was a heretic. Things like him not drinking until he was 18 because when he was confirmed he made an official promise to wait. Promises they take a tad seriously if you know what I mean. I think a lot of irish people will be as you say - modern in outlook but I think older generation wise its still there. Having said that I would say if all the over 60s in this country disappeared overnight you'd lose a lot of the old-fashioned bigotries like racism and homophobia at a stroke.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the class bit, you've now pushed it to the extremes of a young girl in care and the richest of the rich. Kind of rendering it a moot point? I'm not sure she's in care btw, they used similar language to talk about the last case I remember and I've only skipped over this article, but weren't the family mentioned?

 

And I know what you're saying about it only being our personal experiences, same here obviously, but it seems you are saying that we agree about it being a horrible decision, people I know agree, and the women you know agree. So who is it disagreeing? Would have to be a fairly thoughtless bloke to argue it, surely.

 

As I also said historically the rich always had access to abortion while the poor died in alleyways - the fact that the authorities are now in some kind of control of the situation is just a more modern stance - one thing money has always given people is freedom from laws they don't like.

 

I thought you were getting at the fact that I said that that view that we do agree with is sometimes frowned on as a "betrayal" by more radical supporters of the rights - apologies if we've got mixed up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I also said historically the rich always had access to abortion while the poor died in alleyways - the fact that the authorities are now in some kind of control of the situation is just a more modern stance - one thing money has always given people is freedom from laws they don't like.

 

I thought you were getting at the fact that I said that that view that we do agree with is sometimes frowned on as a "betrayal" by more radical supporters of the rights - apologies if we've got mixed up.

 

Radical supporters of anything should just fuck off and die for their cause tbh. They have no place in a reasonable conversation. I certainly don't know why you'd let them bother you.* I mentioned students because they often have well meaning but undeveloped or inexperienced points of view, so same difference I suppose. I didn't think a slightly older peer group would see things so back and white, which I thought is what you had said.

 

I don't think abortion is a class issue in Ireland. I would just say generally that there would be a very small minority of under class who would not have access to the same plane/boat to the clinic as anyone else in modern day Ireland and leave it at that.

 

I agree there are still religious people in Ireland, it just doesn't seem any different than anywhere else I've lived, actually France strikes me as being moreso and England about the same. The general populace across all generations are not being guided in their decision making process by religion, even if they do go to mass on Sunday. It's hard to gauge, though, given that it's mostly anecdotal.

 

*Didn't you have some friends with some rather bizarre opinions on another issue we were talking about a while back? Pretty hazy memory so quite possibly bollocks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's ewerk now, maybe he can shed some light on what he thinks about it. Though the lad's clearly off his head, so I don't know how much good he'll be. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not on stopping her but at the end of the day she shouldn't be having a bairn at 17 anyway imo

 

I agree.

 

It's a bit of a grey area, but half the time prevention is the better option than a potentially damaging process.

 

But it's a little harsh to bar her from leaving the country in this situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's ewerk now, maybe he can shed some light on what he thinks about it. Though the lad's clearly off his head, so I don't know how much good he'll be. :panic:

 

You backward, Free State, Pope loving bastards can do whatever yous want. Just another indication that I was right to vote Unionist this year. :panic:

 

Personally I'd just slip her €50 for the Ryanair flight and tell her to keep it quiet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AN Irish judge ruled today that a pregnant 17-year-old girl can travel to Britain for an abortion.

 

The girl, identified only as 'Miss D' in court, is four months pregnant with a severely disabled foetus which cannot survive after birth.

 

The teenager is in the care of the Republic’s Health Service Executive, which prevented her making the journey because abortion is still illegal in Ireland - except where the mother’s life is in danger.

 

But the High Court in Dublin today ruled there was no statutory or constitutional grounds for stopping her from travelling to the UK for the operation.

 

High Court Justice Liam McKechnie heard arguments over the past week from the girl, her carers and lawyers appointed by Attorney General Rory Brady to represent the right to life of the foetus.

 

He ruled the teen can travel to England for an abortion, igniting debate in predominantly Catholic Ireland over whether abortion ought to be legalized.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

Recent tweets

Toontastic Facebook

Donate to Toontastic

Keeping the lights on since... well ages ago
TT-Staff


×