11-year old shot dead in Liverpool

[JawD 31]

Its shit. The whole "I am under 16 and untouchable" is a joke. Then again, the whole system is a complete joke full of people scared to go against human rights of those in the wrong. Should scrap the human rights, bring in our own UK bill of rights, loose the minimum age, cut spending on making prisons like hotels, inrease no of people per cell and build more prisons with the money saved on Tvs, PS3s, carpets etc. Introduce lethal injection for the worst crimes that are 100% sure of. The extra space used by increasing prison terms. Introduce conscription and also young kids who offend being sent to the same. Bring back the cane in schools. Tell ya, when Im priminister....

 

Oh, and two bouncers were also shot in Liverpool last night.

 

All this gun crime and knife crime is disgusting. Its starts with the kids parents and is bred through the gangs. Lack of respect and education.

 

Tell ya, when I was a lad......

[TheInspiration 1]

Has there been a massive increase in it this year or is it just making the news more easily?

[Sima 0]

This country simply needs more prisons. I'd happily pay more tax if Brown announced today he was building 10 massive prisons, capable of holding 15,000 inmates and was operating a 3-strikes and out policy for crimes that otherwise would see the guilty parties walk free with probation.

 

Mandatory 6-year terms for all 3 strikes crimes.

 

Scrap early releases as well.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Sima

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

My theory on prisons is you could make the sentences a lot shorter (and therefore solve the overcrowding problem) if every day in there was a living hell.

 

If you live in a shit area, don't work & have no money being in jail is better than being on the outside: Room with tv, dvd and console, three square meals a day, pool table, gym etc, dossing around with your mate all day.

 

I'd make it like the cells in the Castle Museum in York: cell just big enough for a bed and the door to open. Iron bed, no padding. Trough/bucket for toilet. No windows. No exercise. Basic rations pushed through a slot in the bottom of the door. No tobacco. No contact with the outside world, no visitors, phones or papers. Maybe hose them down once a week if they were lucky.

[NJS 3972]

I always find myself a bit of a schizophrenic when it comes to law and order - there's a part of me which genuinely would be happy with a gunshot to the back of the head for vast tracts of society who just don't "get it" but I try and temper that what I suppose is common sense.

 

The kneejerk build more prisons/lock'em up for years doesn't work - the US has the largest prison population per capita and the harshest sentencing in the world yet still has huge crime rates compared to here and Europe. There is also no correlation whatsoever between murder rates in the states with the death penalty and those without - mainly for the simple reason that the vast majority of murders are heat of the moment things (despite the law needing intent).

 

Its also true that media hype is a factor in perceived crime - murder rates of the last 10 years are actually down. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be shocked by a kid getting shot but the "climate of fear" being built up is an exaggeration.

 

 

I think this crime/gang thing can be questioned on one level in the same way that alcohol abuse is - in Europe the problem seems to be less apparent (though not unknown) so I think we have to look at the differences between what on other levels are pretty similar countries. My honest opinion is that we are reaping the seed sowed in the last 25 years or so by the tenets of Thatcherism. - I'm not going to quote the "no such thing as society" as that is too easy a crutch - I'm talking about the more general materialistic Me, Me, Me society we have become where worth is measured by celebrity and wealth. I also think that for linguistic reasons we are more influenced by the more negative attributes of Americanism.

 

I also have a strong problem with guns. I know people will say a bad man is a bad man no matter what weapon he uses but I think gun use is now seen as so "cool" that it has to be addressed at source - I honestly don't see any legitimate use for firearms being made apart from for the armed forces and its about time they were more controlled. If it turns out the weapons on the streets are ex-army or are being smuggled then for me it would make sense to attack the supply roots rather than convince idiots that guns are wrong.

[Fop 1]

Has there been a massive increase in it this year or is it just making the news more easily?

 

Both I guess, looking at Government statistic (which general try to hide any worrying trends so it might be worse that it seems) such attacks are on the increase by that age group.

 

Although you don't have to look at statistics to see this, just walk down the street in many areas (I'd never have seen 11 years old striding down the street a 7pm pissed out of their minds openly drinking cans of shite lager 10 years ago - they might well have been drinking it, but hidden away in a bush in the park scared anyone would see them, not walking down a main street going "alright mate!!!" to anyone they passed).

 

“We” (that is the Government and society) have largely created a feral youth in this country in the last 10-15 years, that believes itself to be untouchable (and largely it is - look at the guy that punched a drunken 17 year old that was threatening him at a petrol station and very, very nearly went to prison for it) and therefore is largely unafraid of most consequences (as the believe there are none).

 

 

 

 

But, equally these days EVERY such attack is making national news as well, which it wouldn't be doing if it weren't the in thing.

[Fop 1]

The kneejerk build more prisons/lock'em up for years doesn't work - the US has the largest prison population per capita and the harshest sentencing in the world yet still has huge crime rates compared to here and Europe. There is also no correlation whatsoever between murder rates in the states with the death penalty and those without - mainly for the simple reason that the vast majority of murders are heat of the moment things (despite the law needing intent).

 

Actually that whole "3 strikes and you're out" thing they tired a few years ago did actually slash crime rates in the US, the problem was the prisons pretty much instantly filled up and so the had to back of to much lighter sentencing regimes.

 

Which is pretty much the problem, that tough stance works, BUT in a soft (everyone’s the victim BUT the victim) society where you've got a LOT of low grade problems it will result in a big, big, big influx into jails.

The trick is to be able to handle that short term jail space crisis to reap the longer term benefits, the US just couldn't manage to do that.

 

As for murder in the US it’s a complex issue, due to the stupid availability of guns.

 

But really the issue for the UK is to get a grip BEFORE we become as bad as the USA.

[Holden McGroin 4833]

My theory on prisons is you could make the sentences a lot shorter (and therefore solve the overcrowding problem) if every day in there was a living hell.

 

If you live in a shit area, don't work & have no money being in jail is better than being on the outside: Room with tv, dvd and console, three square meals a day, pool table, gym etc, dossing around with your mate all day.

 

I'd make it like the cells in the Castle Museum in York: cell just big enough for a bed and the door to open. Iron bed, no padding. Trough/bucket for toilet. No windows. No exercise. Basic rations pushed through a slot in the bottom of the door. No tobacco. No contact with the outside world, no visitors, phones or papers. Maybe hose them down once a week if they were lucky.

 

I agree with that. Prison should be tough and a place where they never want to go back...not a holiday camp.

[Guest alex]

No one's actually prepared to pay for more jails. Same applies to better schools, better hospitals, etc., etc. Everyone moans about it then elects a government who they hope won't increase income tax. Massive generalisation, obviously, but you know what I mean.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3187]

Could you arseholes care to tell me when a Tyneside toddler has been dragged through a shopping centre, then mhad his eyes gauged out and murdered by two 11 year olds?

 

There have been so many similar incidents there, which is why I'm never shocked when something of this magnitude happens, so get off your high horses you total wanks.

 

My thoughts go out to his family, hopefully the perpetrators are sent away for a long time.

What about Mary Bell?

 

Gateshead tbh.

 

I hate to sound like a pedant but I am so.... Scotswood road actually.

[Kid Dynamite 5899]

23 year old with Learning Disabilities kicked to death in Sunderland 2 days ago. I dont know if the media are just making these stories more prominent but it seems like in the last 12 months the country has gone mad.

[ewerk 26229]

Or the goth kid who was beaten to death 'because of the way she looked'.

[Fop 1]

Or the goth kid who was beaten to death 'because of the way she looked'.

 

Was that the one that's just died?

 

Her and her boyfriend were both beaten into comas in a park about 2 weeks ago by a group of 14-16 year olds, he nearly died but is now recovering but she did just die a day or two ago.

 

 

 

 

 

The big problem with a situation like that is to do anything about it you've EITHER got to avoid it long before you're into it (which means never going anywhere near a group of youths basically).

 

OR take pretty serious aggressive action straight away before they get mob courage (which will likely end up with you being imprisoned for GBH or whatever because you attacked them BEFORE they beat you to death ), because by the time they are attacking you I don't care if you're Bruce Lee, a smack to the back of the head hard enough when they surround you and you're going down and they you're basically kicked to death.

[Tom 13830]

Best to get the bastards on there own i find and then intimadate them,

 

So they know what they'l get if they fuck with you later,

 

thats how it works in the village anyway.

[Lazarus 0]

No one's actually prepared to pay for more jails. Same applies to better schools, better hospitals, etc., etc. Everyone moans about it then elects a government who they hope won't increase income tax. Massive generalisation, obviously, but you know what I mean.

 

Like the electrician/plumber/brckie/plasterer etc etc who do jobs on the side and then moans about foreigners/single mothers defrauding the system.

[Gemmill 34328]

Best to get the bastards on there own i find and then intimadate them,

 

So they know what they'l get if they fuck with you later,

 

thats how it works in the village anyway.

 

They send one of yours to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue. THAT's the village way!

 

 

Seriously though, the fact that people seemingly won't come forward anonymously and grass these fucking bastards up is pathetic. They're teenagers that have killed an 11 year old kid, and grown adults are too scared to pick up the phone and put the police in the picture.

[peasepud 59]

Its also true that media hype is a factor in perceived crime - murder rates of the last 10 years are actually down. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be shocked by a kid getting shot but the "climate of fear" being built up is an exaggeration.

 

I dont agree with that, yes murder rates may actually have gone down but theres definitely a climate of fear, ten years ago grown men werent being shot, stabbed and kicked to death by kids for standing upto them. Its the shift in method and age of the killers that should be seen as the problem here. Im guessing that if you were to compare average age of both killer and victim then now would be considerably lower than say 20 years ago.

 

And more worrying would be the statistic showing the numbers of random killings such as this one. Years ago random murders were the domain of lunatic serial killers, now its any kid in a gang or bloke whos had a few bevvies. The value of a life has disappeared, kids are growing up without any concept of it. It looks like Rhys was a totally random killing, as the police said "wrong place, wrong time", that is the most worrying thing of all, you can keep out of trouble, not go to the bars full of heedcases, not want to get involved when people start kicking off yet still be shot dead walking to the shops.

 

That is a true climate of fear.

 

 

Sad as it is, I blame films, computer games and rap music, these things glorify guns and make it so easy to sit day in day out killing pixels on a screen then one day they go out into the real world, are handed a gun by a mate and think "yeah piece of piss".

 

Those who talk about emigrating though are probably fooling themselves, where are you going to emigrate to? America? we know that place makes here look like a picnic and Im guessing Australia isnt exactly Neighbours day in day out. Thing is they're not going to show that in the promo videos, unless you go to some little quiet island somewhere you're probably going from frying pan to fire.

 

[NJS 3972]

If you do a search on "youth murders" on the BBC you get stories going back years - for example Damilola Taylor was in 2001. I'm willing to accept a degree of increase but I still think the view is exaggerated.

 

 

Also this may not be a popular view but in the 80s a lot of youth "steam" was released at football matches - both in terms of actual violence and more general passion compared to today. I'm not saying I'd return to pre-Hillsborough days but maybe its just a fact of modern life that young people need an outlet.

 

The question then becomes do you try and clamp down on that steam (which seems to be the prevailing suggestion), provide a safe outlet or attack the basic need - the latter probably being a harder task.

[Guest alex]

I think shootings have increased four-fold in the time since Labour took over though. It was on Newsnight the other night. Crime overall has actually gone down.

[NJS 3972]

I think shootings have increased four-fold in the time since Labour took over though. It was on Newsnight the other night. Crime overall has actually gone down.

 

I'd accept that - I think the current generation are the kids of the people who were most disaffected in the 80s.

[Guest alex]

I think shootings have increased four-fold in the time since Labour took over though. It was on Newsnight the other night. Crime overall has actually gone down.

 

I'd accept that - I think the current generation are the kids of the people who were most disaffected in the 80s.

It's no coincidence like.

[tinofbeans 86]

four fold is crazy numbers.... how many in the uk are murdered by guns. my guess is less than 100 people a year. now that whilst fairly horrific, is actually not as bad as a lot of other countries.

 

this particular item, is because an innocent kid has been killed. if it were a crack dealer then it wouldn't make the news.

 

i know i'm stating the obvious but the country hasn't gone to shit, its the media/ tabloids fascination with creating a state of paranoia.

 

again just my $0.02...

[ewerk 26229]

I think shootings have increased four-fold in the time since Labour took over though. It was on Newsnight the other night. Crime overall has actually gone down.

 

Has crime actually gone down or is it just the official government figures which show a decrease?

[Guest alex]

I think shootings have increased four-fold in the time since Labour took over though. It was on Newsnight the other night. Crime overall has actually gone down.

 

Has crime actually gone down or is it just the official government figures which show a decrease?

The latter. Difficult to tell about the former.

[Fop 1]

I think shootings have increased four-fold in the time since Labour took over though. It was on Newsnight the other night. Crime overall has actually gone down.

 

Yep and if you look at the proportion of that that is "youth" crime it's worse still.

 

(and I'd be a wee bit suspicious of "crime has gone down" too, Blabour has done an awful lot of fiddling with figures, but then compares back to older different methods. It's like inflation it's actually nearly 2% higher now IF it was still compiled in the same way as pre-1997 - which a lot of economists feel is a more accurate measure and means you cannot directly compare "official" inflation now to pre-1997 as it doesn't take into account a lot of the things it did before, "officially" anyway.)

 

 

 

 

 

It actually kinda reminds me of how violent attacks on teachers have gone from being pretty much non-existent in the early 90's to a fairly common thing (last I heard was over a 5000% - yes five thousand I didn't add an extra 0 by mistake - increase in them, so from 1 a year to 5000 a year etc - not a lot of room for statistical massage in that ).

 

Which isn't directly linked to gang-like murders and such, but IS another symptom of the underlying issues that have caused both to occur.