Wednesday's gossip column

[Ketsbaia 0]

Drop players when they're on form.

 

Excellent idea.

 

It's not all about form, it's about class. Like it or not Harper is prone to the odd howler, are we meant to wait around for him to drop said clanger and then bring Given back in?

 

The best teams play their best players. Nothing that I have seen tells me that Given is going to be anything short of top class when he comes back so why leave him out?

 

It gives players that competitive edge. No team should have automatic choices. If you play well you should keep your place - and I mean any player, not just in goal.

Plus, why change a winning team?

 

We're talking about a goalkeeper here, we're hardly ruining the equilibrium of a fine tuned midfield now, are we?

 

Harper's been content to sit on the bench for a while now and Given not having any major competition hasn't really affected his performance either.

[Tribal 0]

He got injured, tough luck, shit happens. Harper has came in and done well and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

[David Kelly 1117]

Drop players when they're on form.

 

Excellent idea.

 

If a better player is there to replace him yes. Would you stick with Shola if he was on form in place of Owen or Pattison in place of Barton? Of course you wouldn't because no matter how well those players are playing they have never shown in their careers that they can play consistently better than the players you would replace them with.

Harper is not as good as Given plain and simple. Just because he's playing to a high standard of his own ability it does mean he's a better player.

 

If Emre was in the team playing well I wouldn't suggest dropping him for a fit again Geremi and the same goes for N'Zogbia and Duff. When you have two competing players who can both deliver the same standards I wouldn't advocate dropping one who is playing well just because another who was playing well before he got injured returns. That would set a bid example and show favouritism. This is what Roeder did with Duff and pissed off Charlie to the point that he alsmost left the club which would have been a crying shame even if Duff has been performing. But as I said before, Harper and Given are not equal, Harper cannot consistently perform to the same standard that Given can. Unfortunate but true.

[Ketsbaia 0]

He got injured, tough luck, shit happens. Harper has came in and done well and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

 

He didn't play badly prior to him getting injured so why not bring him back in?

 

The crux of your argument seems to be based on 'he doesn't deserve to be dropped', fact of the matter is Given is a much better player than Harps is. Shall we wait for him to do a Lehmann, lose us a few point and then put the better 'keeper back in or shall we do what SAF and Mourinho do and play their real class players?

[Tribal 0]

If Shola was on form and scoring goals? Yes, I'd play him. Whereas Pattison is utter shit and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the first team squad.

[Tribal 0]

Drop players when they're on form.

 

Excellent idea.

 

If a better player is there to replace him yes. Would you stick with Shola if he was on form in place of Owen or Pattison in place of Barton? Of course you wouldn't because no matter how well those players are playing they have never shown in their careers that they can play consistently better than the players you would replace them with.

Harper is not as good as Given plain and simple. Just because he's playing to a high standard of his own ability it does mean he's a better player.

 

If Emre was in the team playing well I wouldn't suggest dropping him for a fit again Geremi and the same goes for N'Zogbia and Duff. When you have two competing players who can both deliver the same standards I wouldn't advocate dropping one who is playing well just because another who was playing well before he got injured returns. That would set a bid example and show favouritism. This is what Roeder did with Duff and pissed off Charlie to the point that he alsmost left the club which would have been a crying shame even if Duff has been performing. But as I said before, Harper and Given are not equal, Harper cannot consistently perform to the same standard that Given can. Unfortunate but true.

 

Like when Saha kept van Nistelrooy out the first side and won the Carling Cup?..

[Ketsbaia 0]

Drop players when they're on form.

 

Excellent idea.

 

If a better player is there to replace him yes. Would you stick with Shola if he was on form in place of Owen or Pattison in place of Barton? Of course you wouldn't because no matter how well those players are playing they have never shown in their careers that they can play consistently better than the players you would replace them with.

Harper is not as good as Given plain and simple. Just because he's playing to a high standard of his own ability it does mean he's a better player.

 

If Emre was in the team playing well I wouldn't suggest dropping him for a fit again Geremi and the same goes for N'Zogbia and Duff. When you have two competing players who can both deliver the same standards I wouldn't advocate dropping one who is playing well just because another who was playing well before he got injured returns. That would set a bid example and show favouritism. This is what Roeder did with Duff and pissed off Charlie to the point that he alsmost left the club which would have been a crying shame even if Duff has been performing. But as I said before, Harper and Given are not equal, Harper cannot consistently perform to the same standard that Given can. Unfortunate but true.

 

Like when Saha kept van Nistelrooy out the first side and won the Carling Cup?..

 

Man United are still looking for a replacement for RvN.

[Tribal 0]

Really? I thought SAF would have bought one by now.

[David Kelly 1117]

Drop players when they're on form.

 

Excellent idea.

 

If a better player is there to replace him yes. Would you stick with Shola if he was on form in place of Owen or Pattison in place of Barton? Of course you wouldn't because no matter how well those players are playing they have never shown in their careers that they can play consistently better than the players you would replace them with.

Harper is not as good as Given plain and simple. Just because he's playing to a high standard of his own ability it does mean he's a better player.

 

If Emre was in the team playing well I wouldn't suggest dropping him for a fit again Geremi and the same goes for N'Zogbia and Duff. When you have two competing players who can both deliver the same standards I wouldn't advocate dropping one who is playing well just because another who was playing well before he got injured returns. That would set a bid example and show favouritism. This is what Roeder did with Duff and pissed off Charlie to the point that he alsmost left the club which would have been a crying shame even if Duff has been performing. But as I said before, Harper and Given are not equal, Harper cannot consistently perform to the same standard that Given can. Unfortunate but true.

 

Like when Saha kept van Nistelrooy out the first side and won the Carling Cup?..

Fergie had fallen out with RVN and decided to get shot of him which was why he played Saha instead. It wasn't done on the basis that Saha had kept his place because he was playing well. Whatever was said at the time, what's transpired since has clearly proved that.

[David Kelly 1117]

If Shola was on form and scoring goals? Yes, I'd play him. Whereas Pattison is utter shit and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the first team squad.

Completely missed the point there but never mind.

 

Do you really think that Ameobi would ever be able to play to a standard high enough to be better than Owen (assuming that Owen's injury hasn't fucked him which would appear to be the case)?

 

I would say that no matter how well he was playing we would always be in a better state with a fit Owen in the team. If form suggested otherwise then I would be more than happy to keep Shola in the team but the evidence suggests this will never be the case (and this isn't me knocking Shola btw).

 

Do you think that Fergie, Wenger, Benitez or Mourinho would ever not bring Keane, Viera, Gerrard or Lampard back into the team when they were fit no matter how well someone has deputised for them? Maybe for a game or two but never in the long term and that's one of the reasons why these teams are successful. They have players of the calibre that they consistently play well and therefor deserve to be in the team.

 

The shame for Harper is that being a keeper if you make one mistake you cost the team points so you can't afford to rotate and this mean that keepers get dropped no matter whether they deserve it or not. Playing in goal I've experienced this myslef and it pissed me off no end but I can't argue that I wasn't replaced for the good of the team.

[Ketsbaia 0]

Really? I thought SAF would have bought one by now.

 

They haven't got a striker that can score 20 goals a season. That's a fact.

[Tribal 0]

Really? I thought SAF would have bought one by now.

 

They haven't got a striker that can score 20 goals a season. That's a fact.

 

Never said they had tbh.

[Craig 6302]

Harper has done nowt wrong and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

 

Definitely done nowt wrong and unfortunately should still be dropped tbh.

 

Damned right - you play the best man for the role and that is undoubtedly Given. Just because Harper has done nothing wrong doesn't mean he is entitled to keep playing until he does - that's fucking ludicrous!!!

[Craig 6302]

Drop players when they're on form.

 

Excellent idea.

 

I'd argue that Harper isn't 'on form' he just hasn't had a howler in the time he's been playing - BIG difference IMO.

 

None of the games he's played have I thought he's been outstanding and made me sit up and take notice. Had he'd given a 'match winning' performance, then i'd see a case for keeping him in.

[David Kelly 1117]

Harper has done nowt wrong and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

 

Definitely done nowt wrong and unfortunately should still be dropped tbh.

 

Damned right - you play the best man for the role and that is undoubtedly Given. Just because Harper has done nothing wrong doesn't mean he is entitled to keep playing until he does - that's fucking ludicrous!!!

TBF even if Harper doesn't make the mistake we're suggesting he will, he still won't play to the standard of Given. I've seen Harper concede goals before that weren't his fault but that I was pretty certain Given would have stopped. This is the difference for me. It's not that Harper is some sort of comedy keeper like Paul Robinson, it's just that he can't quite pull of the saves that the very best keepers can. And since we have a keeper who can make those saves it makes complete sense to play him.

 

You can feel sorry for Harper when he gets dropped but letting that cloud your decision is just as bad as playing players simply because they are the bigger name and gets you nowhere in football.

[Craig 6302]

Harper has done nowt wrong and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

 

Definitely done nowt wrong and unfortunately should still be dropped tbh.

 

Damned right - you play the best man for the role and that is undoubtedly Given. Just because Harper has done nothing wrong doesn't mean he is entitled to keep playing until he does - that's fucking ludicrous!!!

TBF even if Harper doesn't make the mistake we're suggesting he will, he still won't play to the standard of Given. I've seen Harper concede goals before that weren't his fault but that I was pretty certain Given would have stopped. This is the difference for me. It's not that Harper is some sort of comedy keeper like Paul Robinson, it's just that he can't quite pull of the saves that the very best keepers can. And since we have a keeper who can make those saves it makes complete sense to play him.

 

You can feel sorry for Harper when he gets dropped but letting that cloud your decision is just as bad as playing players simply because they are the bigger name and gets you nowhere in football.

 

In some respects yes but, apart from a short time under Gullit's reign, Harper has never been the first choice keeper at SJP and has had countless opportunities to move on but has chosen to remain as our backup keeper.

[Tribal 0]

Harper has done nowt wrong and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

 

Definitely done nowt wrong and unfortunately should still be dropped tbh.

 

Damned right - you play the best man for the role and that is undoubtedly Given. Just because Harper has done nothing wrong doesn't mean he is entitled to keep playing until he does - that's fucking ludicrous!!!

TBF even if Harper doesn't make the mistake we're suggesting he will, he still won't play to the standard of Given. I've seen Harper concede goals before that weren't his fault but that I was pretty certain Given would have stopped. This is the difference for me. It's not that Harper is some sort of comedy keeper like Paul Robinson, it's just that he can't quite pull of the saves that the very best keepers can. And since we have a keeper who can make those saves it makes complete sense to play him.

 

You can feel sorry for Harper when he gets dropped but letting that cloud your decision is just as bad as playing players simply because they are the bigger name and gets you nowhere in football.

 

In some respects yes but, apart from a short time under Gullit's reign, Harper has never been the first choice keeper at SJP and has had countless opportunities to move on but has chosen to remain as our backup keeper.

 

He had a spell as first choice under Robson in the 2000/01 season and Given requested to be transfer listed.

[Craig 6302]

Ok then, he's had two short spells as first choice keeper ........... in 14 years!

 

The point still remains!

 

You keep a goalkeeper of Given's calibre out of the side and there's only one certainty. He'll be out the door very quickly. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see Arsenal sniffing around...

[David Kelly 1117]

Harper has done nowt wrong and doesn't deserve to be dropped.

 

Definitely done nowt wrong and unfortunately should still be dropped tbh.

 

Damned right - you play the best man for the role and that is undoubtedly Given. Just because Harper has done nothing wrong doesn't mean he is entitled to keep playing until he does - that's fucking ludicrous!!!

TBF even if Harper doesn't make the mistake we're suggesting he will, he still won't play to the standard of Given. I've seen Harper concede goals before that weren't his fault but that I was pretty certain Given would have stopped. This is the difference for me. It's not that Harper is some sort of comedy keeper like Paul Robinson, it's just that he can't quite pull of the saves that the very best keepers can. And since we have a keeper who can make those saves it makes complete sense to play him.

 

You can feel sorry for Harper when he gets dropped but letting that cloud your decision is just as bad as playing players simply because they are the bigger name and gets you nowhere in football.

 

In some respects yes but, apart from a short time under Gullit's reign, Harper has never been the first choice keeper at SJP and has had countless opportunities to move on but has chosen to remain as our backup keeper.

Very true, Harper clearly hasn't been that upset by being Given's understudy or he would have been off long before now. I'm sure if he didn't get in the team ahead of an underperforming Given that would change but as you say apart from very short periods that just hasn't happened.

[acrossthepond 703]

Thank Harper for services rendered, bring Given back into the first squad.

 

Good move by Big Sam to keep Given on the sidelines for the Wigan match, not like Roeder who would have certainly rushed him in as soon as he could stand. But barring another injury during the internationals, Given will be ready to start by the Derby game and he must start. He is a world-class keeper. Harper is a world-class keeper's understudy. The choice is clear.

[Park Life 70]

Thank Harper for services rendered, bring Given back into the first squad.

 

Good move by Big Sam to keep Given on the sidelines for the Wigan match, not like Roeder who would have certainly rushed him in as soon as he could stand. But barring another injury during the internationals, Given will be ready to start by the Derby game and he must start. He is a world-class keeper. Harper is a world-class keeper's understudy. The choice is clear.

 

Competition for places is important. Lot of supposition in this thread. Given is good but he certainly isn't world class IMO.

 

 

Cech and Buffon are world class unreservedly.

Edited September 5, 2007 by Parky

[pooptash 0]

why's given being like that, harpers been here for 14 year and hasnt had much chance and doesn't complain about being left out of the team. givens been used all the 9/10 year hes been here so...

[Craig 6302]

Thank Harper for services rendered, bring Given back into the first squad.

 

Good move by Big Sam to keep Given on the sidelines for the Wigan match, not like Roeder who would have certainly rushed him in as soon as he could stand. But barring another injury during the internationals, Given will be ready to start by the Derby game and he must start. He is a world-class keeper. Harper is a world-class keeper's understudy. The choice is clear.

 

Competition for places is important. Lot of supposition in this thread. Given is good but he certainly isn't world class IMO.

 

 

Cech and Buffon are world class unreservedly.

 

I used to share that sentiment up until a couple of years back when we turned shit and his importance became even more apparent. He's not flawless, but then no-one is but he is certainly one of the best keepers in this country if not in Europe.

 

Buffon has to be IMO one of the most over-rated keepers in the world. And it's all press related. If he was anything decent he'd never have remained at Juve last season.

 

 

why's given being like that, harpers been here for 14 year and hasnt had much chance and doesn't complain about being left out of the team. givens been used all the 9/10 year hes been here so...

 

I think he's displaying the fact that he's had opportunities to move on to better things but has remained loyal and wants that to be acknowledged. So he speaks his mind.... good for him IMO

[David Kelly 1117]

Thank Harper for services rendered, bring Given back into the first squad.

 

Good move by Big Sam to keep Given on the sidelines for the Wigan match, not like Roeder who would have certainly rushed him in as soon as he could stand. But barring another injury during the internationals, Given will be ready to start by the Derby game and he must start. He is a world-class keeper. Harper is a world-class keeper's understudy. The choice is clear.

 

Competition for places is important. Lot of supposition in this thread. Given is good but he certainly isn't world class IMO.

 

 

Cech and Buffon are world class unreservedly.

Cech is certainly a better keeper than Given and I haven't seen much of Buffon for a while but I would say he was a better keeper a few years ago.

But beyond those two I can't really think of much better. Look at all of the major footballing nations (England, Spain, France, Germany, Holland, Argentina, Brazil and so on) and non of them have a keeper to match Given. So in that respect I would have to class him as world class even if he's not the very best in the world.

 

And as Craig says, his importance has become even more apparent when we became a much poorer side!

[Park Life 70]

Thank Harper for services rendered, bring Given back into the first squad.

 

Good move by Big Sam to keep Given on the sidelines for the Wigan match, not like Roeder who would have certainly rushed him in as soon as he could stand. But barring another injury during the internationals, Given will be ready to start by the Derby game and he must start. He is a world-class keeper. Harper is a world-class keeper's understudy. The choice is clear.

 

Competition for places is important. Lot of supposition in this thread. Given is good but he certainly isn't world class IMO.

 

 

Cech and Buffon are world class unreservedly.

Cech is certainly a better keeper than Given and I haven't seen much of Buffon for a while but I would say he was a better keeper a few years ago.

But beyond those two I can't really think of much better. Look at all of the major footballing nations (England, Spain, France, Germany, Holland, Argentina, Brazil and so on) and non of them have a keeper to match Given. So in that respect I would have to class him as world class even if he's not the very best in the world.

 

And as Craig says, his importance has become even more apparent when we became a much poorer side!

 

He is very good don't get me wrong but he also has serious flaws, he doesn't come for crosses well and his communication with the def is also poor at times. As a shot stopper he is world class imo.

 

These two also are as good and better in some dept than Given..

 

 

 

Iker Casillias (can't remember how old he is)..

Reina