the weekly hang em flog em debate

[Renton 17576]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,...1483189,00.html

 

.......... not that I expect it to make much difference to an I'm alright Jack though..

 

that is until they shit in your own nest.

 

You know, like McKeag did

46397[/snapback]

 

 

LM, doesn't that article contradict a lot of what you have been saying?

[NJS 3956]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,...1483189,00.html

 

.......... not that I expect it to make much difference to an I'm alright Jack though..

 

that is until they shit in your own nest.

 

You know, like McKeag did

46397[/snapback]

 

 

LM, doesn't that article contradict a lot of what you have been saying?

46399[/snapback]

 

That contradicts everything he's said and backs up what other like me and Rob have been saying - in the long term if you want "decent" citizens from people who've either made a mistake or are "genetic" scum then prison isn't the answer.

 

As I've argued unpopularly in the past on paedos, if someone like this rapist committed his crimes due to an actual mental illness then I'd rather he was treated and cured rather than "locked up forever" as LM wants. Do we want a society where "ill" people are jailed?

[Asprilla 96]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,...1483189,00.html

 

.......... not that I expect it to make much difference to an I'm alright Jack though..

 

that is until they shit in your own nest.

 

You know, like McKeag did

46397[/snapback]

 

 

LM, doesn't that article contradict a lot of what you have been saying?

46399[/snapback]

 

That contradicts everything he's said and backs up what other like me and Rob have been saying - in the long term if you want "decent" citizens from people who've either made a mistake or are "genetic" scum then prison isn't the answer.

 

As I've argued unpopularly in the past on paedos, if someone like this rapist committed his crimes due to an actual mental illness then I'd rather he was treated and cured rather than "locked up forever" as LM wants. Do we want a society where "ill" people are jailed?

46415[/snapback]

 

I think LM's point is that it depends if it was your daughter or someone elses daughter.

[Rob W 0]

What gets me isn't just the pitifully short nature of many custodial sentences, but the differences in sentences for particular crimes. Now I know there is nothing scientific about what I'm going to say and I don't know the full circumstances of each case having only read about them in the paper, but... I read about the case of a woman who was jailed for 3 and a half years for fraud. A lad who raped a 15 year old girl and had a previous criminal record got 4 years. I don't dispute that the woman who had committed major fraud was worthy of a custodial sentence, but surely raping a young lass deserves more than 4 years if you can get three and a half for fraud.

46403[/snapback]

 

As old Marx would be the first to point out Society or the powers that run things always put the importnace of Property well ahead of people thus crimes involving fraud, theft etc are disproportinately heavily punished

 

But whatever you do don't get involved with arson - they REALLY throw the book at you for that - you stand a good chance of finishing in Broadmoor - forever..............

[NJS 3956]

I think LM's point is that it depends if it was your daughter or someone elses daughter.

46445[/snapback]

 

But then that goes back to what we actually have communities/societies for. The alternative where the "aggrieved" party simply punishes the wrongdoer leads to vigilantism and the breakdown of all law.

 

There has to be a "detached" view when it comes to justice which doesn't mean the severity of the crime is ignored.

[Renton 17576]

I think LM's point is that it depends if it was your daughter or someone elses daughter.

46445[/snapback]

 

But then that goes back to what we actually have communities/societies for. The alternative where the "aggrieved" party simply punishes the wrongdoer leads to vigilantism and the breakdown of all law.

 

There has to be a "detached" view when it comes to justice which doesn't mean the severity of the crime is ignored.

46456[/snapback]

 

 

I agree. Suggestions by papers like the S*n that victims should choose the punishment are ridiculous at best.

[Asprilla 96]

I think LM's point is that it depends if it was your daughter or someone elses daughter.

46445[/snapback]

 

But then that goes back to what we actually have communities/societies for. The alternative where the "aggrieved" party simply punishes the wrongdoer leads to vigilantism and the breakdown of all law.

 

There has to be a "detached" view when it comes to justice which doesn't mean the severity of the crime is ignored.

46456[/snapback]

 

 

I agree. Suggestions by papers like the S*n that victims should choose the punishment are ridiculous at best.

46463[/snapback]

 

 

 

I didn't say that to be fair, merely that having impartiality is easier if it doesn't personally affect you (which I believe to be LM's main point).

[LeazesMag 0]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,...1483189,00.html

 

.......... not that I expect it to make much difference to an I'm alright Jack though..

 

that is until they shit in your own nest.

 

You know, like McKeag did

46397[/snapback]

 

 

LM, doesn't that article contradict a lot of what you have been saying?

46399[/snapback]

 

That contradicts everything he's said and backs up what other like me and Rob have been saying - in the long term if you want "decent" citizens from people who've either made a mistake or are "genetic" scum then prison isn't the answer.

 

As I've argued unpopularly in the past on paedos, if someone like this rapist committed his crimes due to an actual mental illness then I'd rather he was treated and cured rather than "locked up forever" as LM wants. Do we want a society where "ill" people are jailed?

46415[/snapback]

 

I think LM's point is that it depends if it was your daughter or someone elses daughter.

46445[/snapback]

 

I understand where you feel you can say that, however I only did a quick look and found the article which makes the point that being released doesn't mean you are "cured" and can still be a danger to the public, and also the fact that even Lord Woolf - who himself is usually a woolly headed liberal - has said that the present system hasn't worked, and isn't likely to work. Despite Robs statistics.

 

Like all other parents, you look after your own, however just because a victim is someone else's daughter, or son, and not yours doesn't mean you should be indifferent . We want to make the country a safe place for everyone, and you aren't going to do that by setting dangerous people free.

 

I simply cannot see how Hoare can be "cured", and feel it is simply a matter of time, particularly if you have read the recent press about him, he sounds just as sick as ever.

[LeazesMag 0]

What gets me isn't just the pitifully short nature of many custodial sentences, but the differences in sentences for particular crimes. Now I know there is nothing scientific about what I'm going to say and I don't know the full circumstances of each case having only read about them in the paper, but... I read about the case of a woman who was jailed for 3 and a half years for fraud. A lad who raped a 15 year old girl and had a previous criminal record got 4 years. I don't dispute that the woman who had committed major fraud was worthy of a custodial sentence, but surely raping a young lass deserves more than 4 years if you can get three and a half for fraud.

46403[/snapback]

 

 

Absolutely. This is the point.......how many judges are giving lenient sentences because they know they aren't enough prisons ??? And maybe they are being directed to give lenient sentences because there isn't enough prisons ??

Edited October 16, 2005 by LeazesMag

[Rob W 0]

What gets me isn't just the pitifully short nature of many custodial sentences, but the differences in sentences for particular crimes. Now I know there is nothing scientific about what I'm going to say and I don't know the full circumstances of each case having only read about them in the paper, but... I read about the case of a woman who was jailed for 3 and a half years for fraud. A lad who raped a 15 year old girl and had a previous criminal record got 4 years. I don't dispute that the woman who had committed major fraud was worthy of a custodial sentence, but surely raping a young lass deserves more than 4 years if you can get three and a half for fraud.

46403[/snapback]

 

 

Absolutely. This is the point.......how many judges are giving lenient sentences because they know they aren't enough prisons ??? And maybe they are being directed to give lenient sentences because there isn't enough prisons ??

46474[/snapback]

 

Certainly the Govt (this one and the preceding Tory one) try and pressure Magistrates NOT to bang up everyoone - hypocrisy of the first order of course as they pass the laws setting out the sentences and bang on about locking people up when it suits them...................

 

As for an earlier point about the victims choosing the punishment - in Islamic Law the victim can waive things like execution - even in Saudi

Edited October 17, 2005 by Rob W