ChezGiven 0 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Last week, a fundamental sea change in the UK's health policy occured when Alan Johnson, the health secretary, reversed the existing decision to stop patients paying for their own drugs. Over the past 3 or 4 years, there have been numerous cases of patients being prepared to pay out of their own pocket for drugs not available on the NHS. The NHS policy was to then say that the patient had 'opted out of the system' and that they would then have to pay for all the costs of their care, including diagnostics hospital stays etc as well as the costs of the drugs. This was policy as one of the reasons we have an NHS is because of the desire to have a system with equal access for all. If you allow patients to pay, only those who can afford it will be able to and you therefore have a two-tier system which goes against the principles of the NHS. This has now been reversed as it was seen as fundamentally unethical to deny the right of someone who is willing and able to pay to access drugs that are not approved for use in the NHS (mostly on the basis of their cost). Now, this begs the question, isn’t it time to privatise the NHS and introduce a system of insurance that people can choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 It's been happening for years. The only reason Labour were so vigorously against the Tories suggestion about allowing people to choose to put some National Insurance payment into private health care instead was that it would have destroyed the NHS over night (a bit like if everyone suddenly stopped buying sweat show clothes - the lack of any income and resultant starvation would be a bigger problem than exploitation itself). Although I'd love to meet the fucker that thought up the NICE acronym, talk about trying to paint bad news good. NOBS would have been closer to the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Last week, a fundamental sea change in the UK's health policy occured when Alan Johnson, the health secretary, reversed the existing decision to stop patients paying for their own drugs. Over the past 3 or 4 years, there have been numerous cases of patients being prepared to pay out of their own pocket for drugs not available on the NHS. The NHS policy was to then say that the patient had 'opted out of the system' and that they would then have to pay for all the costs of their care, including diagnostics hospital stays etc as well as the costs of the drugs. This was policy as one of the reasons we have an NHS is because of the desire to have a system with equal access for all. If you allow patients to pay, only those who can afford it will be able to and you therefore have a two-tier system which goes against the principles of the NHS. This has now been reversed as it was seen as fundamentally unethical to deny the right of someone who is willing and able to pay to access drugs that are not approved for use in the NHS (mostly on the basis of their cost). Now, this begs the question, isn’t it time to privatise the NHS and introduce a system of insurance that people can choose? The NHS should remain free at access to anyone who needs it. I shan't be moved on this Chez by any of your 'clever talk'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 NICE is rational, its the system that needs to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 Last week, a fundamental sea change in the UK's health policy occured when Alan Johnson, the health secretary, reversed the existing decision to stop patients paying for their own drugs. Over the past 3 or 4 years, there have been numerous cases of patients being prepared to pay out of their own pocket for drugs not available on the NHS. The NHS policy was to then say that the patient had 'opted out of the system' and that they would then have to pay for all the costs of their care, including diagnostics hospital stays etc as well as the costs of the drugs. This was policy as one of the reasons we have an NHS is because of the desire to have a system with equal access for all. If you allow patients to pay, only those who can afford it will be able to and you therefore have a two-tier system which goes against the principles of the NHS. This has now been reversed as it was seen as fundamentally unethical to deny the right of someone who is willing and able to pay to access drugs that are not approved for use in the NHS (mostly on the basis of their cost). Now, this begs the question, isn’t it time to privatise the NHS and introduce a system of insurance that people can choose? The NHS should remain free at access to anyone who needs it. I shan't be moved on this Chez by any of your 'clever talk'. We'll see about that... Its not free anymore, there are people paying for drugs who can afford them and being treated normally for all other services and there are people dying who cant afford to pay for them. This is pragmatic not dogmatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I think this is sensible like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 NICE is rational, its the system that needs to change. As an book-balancing measure, yes absolutely. As a clinical judgement, meh. As a patient welfare issue, fuck off. Whichever way you look at it the name is spin at its worst, just ask any low grade dementia sufferer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 NICE is rational, its the system that needs to change. As an book-balancing measure, yes absolutely. As a clinical judgement, meh. As a patient welfare issue, fuck off. Whichever way you look at it the name is spin at its worst, just ask any low grade dementia sufferer. Then ask them again 5 minutes later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) Last week, a fundamental sea change in the UK's health policy occured when Alan Johnson, the health secretary, reversed the existing decision to stop patients paying for their own drugs. Over the past 3 or 4 years, there have been numerous cases of patients being prepared to pay out of their own pocket for drugs not available on the NHS. The NHS policy was to then say that the patient had 'opted out of the system' and that they would then have to pay for all the costs of their care, including diagnostics hospital stays etc as well as the costs of the drugs. This was policy as one of the reasons we have an NHS is because of the desire to have a system with equal access for all. If you allow patients to pay, only those who can afford it will be able to and you therefore have a two-tier system which goes against the principles of the NHS. This has now been reversed as it was seen as fundamentally unethical to deny the right of someone who is willing and able to pay to access drugs that are not approved for use in the NHS (mostly on the basis of their cost). Now, this begs the question, isn’t it time to privatise the NHS and introduce a system of insurance that people can choose? The NHS should remain free at access to anyone who needs it. I shan't be moved on this Chez by any of your 'clever talk'. We'll see about that... Its not free anymore, there are people paying for drugs who can afford them and being treated normally for all other services and there are people dying who cant afford to pay for them. This is pragmatic not dogmatic. Well if that is the case it is a disgrace. If people are dying due to lack access to exotic drugs..I'm personally ready to lead a lynch mob and round up every hospital manager and MP involved or linked in such a matter. Furthermore the NHS should export free healtcare to other countries in need. YES YOU HEARD ME RIGHT! We are the 8th richest country on the planet. I accept no excuses and those in the way of our freedoms, rights and heritage will be hunted down. Edited June 25, 2008 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 NICE is rational, its the system that needs to change. As an book-balancing measure, yes absolutely. As a clinical judgement, meh. As a patient welfare issue, fuck off. Whichever way you look at it the name is spin at its worst, just ask any low grade dementia sufferer. The acronym comes from the 90's when it was an idea kicking about whitehall for introducing a body to 'advise' the NHS on cost-effectiveness and was originally the Nat Ins of Cost-effectiveness. The idea developed but the acronym changed. I dont think they meant it as spin at the time. The UK system is inefficient and wasteful and involves pre-planned annual spending. The system cant afford treatments and so needs to restrict and ration. Its a part of life, unless you change how its organised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 NICE is rational, its the system that needs to change. As an book-balancing measure, yes absolutely. As a clinical judgement, meh. As a patient welfare issue, fuck off. Whichever way you look at it the name is spin at its worst, just ask any low grade dementia sufferer. Then ask them again 5 minutes later Well it is pretty cunning (outside the nice name, nasty job, partnership, smile whilst you stab them in the back nonsense), the people they screw over either don't remember it or are dead..... a politicians wet dream really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 NICE is rational, its the system that needs to change. As an book-balancing measure, yes absolutely. As a clinical judgement, meh. As a patient welfare issue, fuck off. Whichever way you look at it the name is spin at its worst, just ask any low grade dementia sufferer. The acronym comes from the 90's when it was an idea kicking about whitehall for introducing a body to 'advise' the NHS on cost-effectiveness and was originally the Nat Ins of Cost-effectiveness. The idea developed but the acronym changed. I dont think they meant it as spin at the time. The UK system is inefficient and wasteful and involves pre-planned annual spending. The system cant afford treatments and so needs to restrict and ration. Its a part of life, unless you change how its organised. Well National Institute of Cost-effectiveness is at least pretty much honest. But National Institute for Clinical Excellence is a complete lie. National Institute for Cheapest possible Elixirs maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 NICE is rational, its the system that needs to change. As an book-balancing measure, yes absolutely. As a clinical judgement, meh. As a patient welfare issue, fuck off. Whichever way you look at it the name is spin at its worst, just ask any low grade dementia sufferer. The acronym comes from the 90's when it was an idea kicking about whitehall for introducing a body to 'advise' the NHS on cost-effectiveness and was originally the Nat Ins of Cost-effectiveness. The idea developed but the acronym changed. I dont think they meant it as spin at the time. The UK system is inefficient and wasteful and involves pre-planned annual spending. The system cant afford treatments and so needs to restrict and ration. Its a part of life, unless you change how its organised. Well National Institute of Cost-effectiveness is at least pretty much honest. But National Institute for Clinical Excellence is a complete lie. National Institute for Cheapest possible Elixirs maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo 133 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I don't have a problem with Private hospitals and clinics for those that wish to pay for treaments, but the thing I have a problem with is rich folk being able to "jump the cue" at NHS hospitals, it just feels so wrong. What is needed is some common sense with surgery and treatments that are provided by the NHS, boob jobs and cosmetic proceedures etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5904 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Watch 'Sicko'. Worst thing that could posssibly happen privatising the NHS. One of the best health care sytems in the world and practically free. People need to educate themselves on the total state that other countries health care systems are in before they start moaning about ours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Last week, a fundamental sea change in the UK's health policy occured when Alan Johnson, the health secretary, reversed the existing decision to stop patients paying for their own drugs. Over the past 3 or 4 years, there have been numerous cases of patients being prepared to pay out of their own pocket for drugs not available on the NHS. The NHS policy was to then say that the patient had 'opted out of the system' and that they would then have to pay for all the costs of their care, including diagnostics hospital stays etc as well as the costs of the drugs. This was policy as one of the reasons we have an NHS is because of the desire to have a system with equal access for all. If you allow patients to pay, only those who can afford it will be able to and you therefore have a two-tier system which goes against the principles of the NHS. This has now been reversed as it was seen as fundamentally unethical to deny the right of someone who is willing and able to pay to access drugs that are not approved for use in the NHS (mostly on the basis of their cost). Now, this begs the question, isn’t it time to privatise the NHS and introduce a system of insurance that people can choose? The NHS should remain free at access to anyone who needs it. I shan't be moved on this Chez by any of your 'clever talk'. I agree. Providing they are British. Or spongers........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3977 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I don't have a problem with Private hospitals and clinics for those that wish to pay for treaments, but the thing I have a problem with is rich folk being able to "jump the cue" at NHS hospitals, it just feels so wrong. What is needed is some common sense with surgery and treatments that are provided by the NHS, boob jobs and cosmetic proceedures etc. I agree but I do have a problem with private healthcare which is twofold - firstly because the rich and powerful can and do opt out of the NHS I don't trust their commitment to it - I think if they had to use it then just like education it would be turned around awfully quickly. Secondly the private sector poach staff from the NHS which means their training costs are practically zero - leaving aside the "theft" of tax paid for skills if they had to fund their own training then the costs would be completely prohibitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Watch 'Sicko'. Worst thing that could posssibly happen privatising the NHS. One of the best health care sytems in the world and practically free. People need to educate themselves on the total state that other countries health care systems are in before they start moaning about ours Correctamundo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 Watch 'Sicko'. Worst thing that could posssibly happen privatising the NHS. One of the best health care sytems in the world and practically free. People need to educate themselves on the total state that other countries health care systems are in before they start moaning about ours Like the German, French, Spanish or even Singapore systems? Dont worry, i have and as far as Sicko is concerned, didnt it state like you did that we have the best health care system in the world? Yet when you look at cancer mortality statistics produced by the Karloniska institute, it shows that the UK is shite compared to the rest of the world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6956446.stm Have a look at the graph at the bottom. I think we need to change our system and we that we would all be better off if we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Watch 'Sicko'. Worst thing that could posssibly happen privatising the NHS. One of the best health care sytems in the world and practically free. People need to educate themselves on the total state that other countries health care systems are in before they start moaning about ours Like the German, French, Spanish or even Singapore systems? Dont worry, i have and as far as Sicko is concerned, didnt it state like you did that we have the best health care system in the world? Yet when you look at cancer mortality statistics produced by the Karloniska institute, it shows that the UK is shite compared to the rest of the world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6956446.stm Have a look at the graph at the bottom. I think we need to change our system and we that we would all be better off if we did. It's probably cause cancer kills people Chez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Has anyone got that list handy of the zillion things private health insurance won't cover/the smallprint/the flim flam/the jazz/too old/too fat/inherited family diseases or susceptibility thereof/..... I seriously don't think health should be run by profit making organisations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieMessiah 0 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Watch 'Sicko'. Worst thing that could posssibly happen privatising the NHS. One of the best health care sytems in the world and practically free. People need to educate themselves on the total state that other countries health care systems are in before they start moaning about ours Like the German, French, Spanish or even Singapore systems? Dont worry, i have and as far as Sicko is concerned, didnt it state like you did that we have the best health care system in the world? Yet when you look at cancer mortality statistics produced by the Karloniska institute, it shows that the UK is shite compared to the rest of the world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6956446.stm Have a look at the graph at the bottom. I think we need to change our system and we that we would all be better off if we did. It's not a national health service anyway - what about the differences that exist in the way NHS Scotland is run and funded? You'd open up a can of worms right now in terms of the whole constitutional debate if you went anywhere near deconstructing the NHS in England and replacing it with a system of compulsory health insurance instead. But that is where we're heading anyway - there is an absolute inevitability about the NHS being broken up and sold off. And the biggest concern of all has to be about the ageing population and how younger working-age folk are going to pay for the domicilary and nursing care required for the new gerentocracy. Free personal care for the elderly has been contentious up here in Scotland. How would you provide adequate healthcare for the elderly without a "national health service" safety net? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieMessiah 0 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Has anyone got that list handy of the zillion things private health insurance won't cover/the smallprint/the flim flam/the jazz/too old/too fat/inherited family diseases or susceptibility thereof/..... I seriously don't think health should be run by profit making organisations. If it needs to be run as a quasi-commercial venture then it needs to be run as a network of integrated social enterprises, trading for profits which are then sown straight back into the business and into service provision and improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Watch 'Sicko'. Worst thing that could posssibly happen privatising the NHS. One of the best health care sytems in the world and practically free. People need to educate themselves on the total state that other countries health care systems are in before they start moaning about ours Like the German, French, Spanish or even Singapore systems? Dont worry, i have and as far as Sicko is concerned, didnt it state like you did that we have the best health care system in the world? Yet when you look at cancer mortality statistics produced by the Karloniska institute, it shows that the UK is shite compared to the rest of the world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6956446.stm Have a look at the graph at the bottom. I think we need to change our system and we that we would all be better off if we did. It's not a national health service anyway - what about the differences that exist in the way NHS Scotland is run and funded? You'd open up a can of worms right now in terms of the whole constitutional debate if you went anywhere near deconstructing the NHS in England and replacing it with a system of compulsory health insurance instead. But that is where we're heading anyway - there is an absolute inevitability about the NHS being broken up and sold off. And the biggest concern of all has to be about the ageing population and how younger working-age folk are going to pay for the domicilary and nursing care required for the new gerentocracy. Free personal care for the elderly has been contentious up here in Scotland. How would you provide adequate healthcare for the elderly without a "national health service" safety net? Good post. I never understand this cobblers that it costs too much or is inefficient, that's what they used to say about the railways - look at the fucking state of it now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Has anyone got that list handy of the zillion things private health insurance won't cover/the smallprint/the flim flam/the jazz/too old/too fat/inherited family diseases or susceptibility thereof/..... I seriously don't think health should be run by profit making organisations. If it needs to be run as a quasi-commercial venture then it needs to be run as a network of integrated social enterprises, trading for profits which are then sown straight back into the business and into service provision and improvements. I would be happy if what you've just posted is quoted word for word on a great big document that goes through parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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