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Read this is the Metro this morning.

 

Healer dies after letting cut foot rot

Monday, November 17, 2008

 

A healing therapist died after a minor injury went gangrenous because his 'inner being' told him not to see a doctor, an inquest has heard.

Russell Jenkins shunned conventional treatment for his foot injury after he trod on an electrical plug at home.

 

He instead tried the ancient remedy of putting honey on it but his toes later went black and began to stink.

 

Neither Mr Jenkins nor partner Cherie Cameron, a former nurse, sought med­ical help, the inquest heard.

 

The 52-year-old would have had a 30 per cent chance of survival if he had sought treatment just two hours before he died, said consultant vascular surgeon Mark Pemberton.

 

'Russell Jenkins' condition was inappropriately and ineffectively treated by himself and by others and led to his death,' said David Horsley, coroner for South-East Hampshire.

 

Mr Jenkins, who ran the Quiet Mind Centre from his home in Southsea, Hampshire, injured his foot in December 2006 and developed an 2cm-long ulcer.

 

In April 2007, Mr Jenkins, a diabetic, sought alternative advice from homeopath Susan Finn, who suggested he treat it with Manuka honey.

 

When Ms Finn visited him the next day, she saw blood on the bed sheets and detected a foul smell.

 

His foot had become swollen and one of his toes was discoloured. Two days later, his toes turned black.

 

He died on April 17 from gangrene caused by a mixed bacterial infection.

 

His mother, Eileen Jenkins, told the inq­uest: 'To lose my son is devastating, absolutely. But the way he died. I just can't come to terms with it when I know all it needed was a phone call for a doctor or ambul­ance, for antibiotics and my son would be here today.'

 

A narrative verdict was recorded by Mr Horsley.

 

So are his surviving family going to sue the homeopath for her involvement in this, as I'm sure they would a negligent doctor? Somehow I doubt it, yet this quackery still gets tens of millions of pounds funding from the NHS? Time to stop it now, if people are gullible enough to waste their own money on this fair enough but no way do I want to contribute to it.

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

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Guest alex
For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

I can see how you would use that sort of thing as a last resort and it just shows it can work. The case in the OP is tragic though and I can't understand why the doctor wouldn't have been the first port of call under those circumstances.

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

I can see how you would use that sort of thing as a last resort and it just shows it can work. The case in the OP is tragic though and I can't understand why the doctor wouldn't have been the first port of call under those circumstances.

 

 

I agree about op obv. I was as convinced as Renty that homoeopathy was quackery at best - I just wanted to share my convwersion. Ill be really pissed of if I have the same revelation wrt Jesus - I will have to kill myself if I start beleiving that tripe

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

 

There may well have been something in it (nothing magical though), but equally it could be the cancer survivor issue (someone drinks broccoli juice or whatever and lives for another 10 years) - i.e. coincidence (or something else occurring and it getting the "miracle" label for it).

 

 

For example (not exactly homoeopathy, but similar) with eczema case I remember an issue with chinese medicine, someone didn't like using "conventional steroid creams", so they used a "natural one" from such a place and it worked well, but then they started to get some side effects from it, it turned out it was actually stronger than conventionally prescribed ones.

 

 

Which is where the problem lies, lack of regulation. You never know what you are being told to take and you never know what the person telling you has in experience, knowledge or sanity.

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

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Sometimes homeopathy does work. It might be a placebo, it might be a coincidence, there might be no rational explanation for it but it still works. I think there have even been some randomised controlled trials that show certain remedies have a significant effect. However, standard accepted medical practice has to be the first port of call. The question Renton raises concerning the homeopath and legal action is an interesting one. I would say that homeopaths have no formal medical training and therefore whilst is disappointing she did not tell him to go straight to hospital she isn't negligent for not doing so. I'd say it's his own fault for asking for a homeopathic opinion before a medical one.

 

As for the NHS subsidising homeopathy, a great number of people get relief from it which reduces the burden on GPs and hospitals, but I think a shortage of aromotherapists is a small price to pay for more beds, nurses and operating lists.

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

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Sometimes homeopathy does work. It might be a placebo, it might be a coincidence, there might be no rational explanation for it but it still works. I think there have even been some randomised controlled trials that show certain remedies have a significant effect. However, standard accepted medical practice has to be the first port of call. The question Renton raises concerning the homeopath and legal action is an interesting one. I would say that homeopaths have no formal medical training and therefore whilst is disappointing she did not tell him to go straight to hospital she isn't negligent for not doing so. I'd say it's his own fault for asking for a homeopathic opinion before a medical one.

 

As for the NHS subsidising homeopathy, a great number of people get relief from it which reduces the burden on GPs and hospitals, but I think a shortage of aromotherapists is a small price to pay for more beds, nurses and operating lists.

 

The better quality trials show homeopathy has no more effect than placebo, as you would expect for something that isn't really there. But active drugs also have an associated placebo effect, plus you get the active component as well. So I really don't see how homeopathy is effective in any meaningful sense.

 

This is not an isolated case btw, many people have died indirectly through quackery because they haven't sought proper medical help in time. And of course, some alternative treatments are actively harmful, I think Fop correctly alluded to the addition of potent corticosteroids in Chinese 'herbal' medicine, all of which are totally unregulated.

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This is the second time on here someone has mentioned their miracle cure for Eczema. The last one was Lourdes.

 

As I said in that thread, many children just grow out of it.

 

Still, I don't want to come over all Guardian on the subject, so who knows, maybe there is something in it.

 

EDIT: I really should hae read the rest of the thread before posting. Anyway, what Renton said.

Edited by Happy Face

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

 

Couldn't I treat a control group, while an actual homeopath treated the other group?

Edited by Happy Face

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

 

Couldn't I treat a control group, while an actual homeopath treated the other group?

 

no

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

 

Couldn't I treat a control group, while an actual homeopath treated the other group?

 

no

 

:jesuswept:

 

Another dream dashed.

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

 

Couldn't I treat a control group, while an actual homeopath treated the other group?

 

no

 

:jesuswept:

 

Another dream dashed.

 

 

The reason being by defintion a homeopath cant treat a group. I dont really know though - I dont want to be the boards resident new age crank.

 

I do go to the accupuncturist once a month though (not on the nhs renty)

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

 

Homeopathy is an ideal intervention to perform a double blind, placebo controlled trial on as it happens. You simply let the homeopath do their stuff, then when the patient goes to recieve their 'prescription' they are given the genuine article or a sugar pill (placebo). The important point is neither the patient of the homeopath is aware who gets what. It's actually a lot easier to test than many other interventions such as acupuncture.

 

I actually think your son benefitted from regression to mean, which is another way of saying he would have gotten better any way, which is typical in people with eczema, especially when they're young. But without a double blind RCT there is no way of knowing.

 

I haven't tried homeopathy personally as I regard it as a waste of money and I would not benefit from the placebo effect, being a non-believer. Homeopaths have actually agreed with me that my scepticism would effect the efficacy of it, so what does that say about it? It's essentially faith-based, that's what (if it really worked my scepticism should make no difference). Imo it's even worse than religion, as it's a mumbo jumbo pseudoscience. So there. :jesuswept:

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

 

Couldn't I treat a control group, while an actual homeopath treated the other group?

 

no

 

:lol:

 

Another dream dashed.

 

 

The reason being by defintion a homeopath cant treat a group. I dont really know though - I dont want to be the boards resident new age crank.

 

I do go to the accupuncturist once a month though (not on the nhs renty)

 

I'm sure a homeopaths "career" isn't over after they've treated their first patient.

 

:jesuswept:

 

My mother's forever forcing liquorice on me to improve my 'motions', I'll end up like this poor bint....

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3733757.stm

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

 

Couldn't I treat a control group, while an actual homeopath treated the other group?

 

no

 

:jesuswept:

 

Another dream dashed.

 

 

The reason being by defintion a homeopath cant treat a group. I dont really know though - I dont want to be the boards resident new age crank.

 

I do go to the accupuncturist once a month though (not on the nhs renty)

 

The homeopath would treat everyone, the only difference being the patient being given sugar pills or, erm, sugar pills, by a third party.

 

Homeopaths like to pretend that it is 'holistic' which somehow makes it untestable. This is simply an excuse to continue peddling their non-proven remedies.

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I do go to the accupuncturist once a month though (not on the nhs renty)

 

That's another reasonable example, (some) acupuncture (in some cases) has been shown to have (what you might deem) a clinically measurable effect.

 

But that's not to say that some random person sticking needles anywhere they felt like it would (even if they charged more for it - which is actually a placebo in and of itself :jesuswept: ).

 

The problem with most alternative medicine is there's basically placebo effect (which is the major factor in most "positive" cases) and then there's coincidence and a very, very tiny proportion of something that might actually be doing something.

 

But mostly it's bunkum - and paying for bunkum is almost never a good idea.

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

 

Homeopathy is an ideal intervention to perform a double blind, placebo controlled trial on as it happens. You simply let the homeopath do their stuff, then when the patient goes to recieve their 'prescription' they are given the genuine article or a sugar pill (placebo). The important point is neither the patient of the homeopath is aware who gets what. It's actually a lot easier to test than many other interventions such as acupuncture.

 

I actually think your son benefitted from regression to mean, which is another way of saying he would have gotten better any way, which is typical in people with eczema, especially when they're young. But without a double blind RCT there is no way of knowing.

 

I haven't tried homeopathy personally as I regard it as a waste of money and I would not benefit from the placebo effect, being a non-believer. Homeopaths have actually agreed with me that my scepticism would effect the efficacy of it, so what does that say about it? It's essentially faith-based, that's what (if it really worked my scepticism should make no difference). Imo it's even worse than religion, as it's a mumbo jumbo pseudoscience. So there. :jesuswept:

 

 

Worse than religion - now Im narked. I realised as I was typing earlier I sound like a religous nut. In your position I wouldnt agree with me either tbh. My position is best described as I think it might be helpful to some in certain situations.

 

What do you think about acupuncture by the way?

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Homeopaths like to pretend that it is 'holistic' which somehow makes it untestable. This is simply an excuse to continue peddling their non-proven remedies.

 

It's actually similar to skin creams and vitamins/health supplements IMO, so long as there is no proven effect it's a gold mine. If it's proven to have some effect all sorts of regulation comes in, and if it's proven to be utter bollocks, well effectively it's then fraud.

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For the first three years of his life my son had excma so bad his elbow and knee joints his feet and hands were like open seeping wounds. Neither he nor my wife or I had an uniterrupted nights sleep in all this time. We had unending hospiatl and doctor visits, which would mitigate the symptoms to some extent but never approach improving his condition in any real way. The poor bugger was in constant agony

 

My wife decided to visit a homeopath, reccomended by one of her hippy mates, who rccomended sulphur tablets. I was convinced it was complete quackery - one week later I had completely changed my view. It was genuinely like a miracle cure.

 

yadda yadda sample size, controlled environment, correlation causality etc.. I was a complete sceptic and cynic beforehand but nothing now will convice me that the homeopath didnt cure my little boy.

 

I've been a life long sufferer of chronic eczema all my life, so have some experience about this. I've been admitted to hospital several times and I am currently on strong topical immunosuppressants, which work (and have trial evidence to prove this, of course).

 

First of all I'm really glad your boy recovered early in his life and didn't suffer the pain I have had to live with. But what I have found out about eczema its a really strange, chronic relapsing illness. It can literally disappear over night for no apparent reason, only to rebound back years later, again for no apparent reason. I have just come from a period of it being clear for 6 years, only to be struck down yet again, when I thought I might have finally grown out of it.

 

I'd suggest that the use of homeopathy in your son's case was a coincidence, as you've already alluded too. If nothing can convince you otherwise then that's your perogative. But ask yourself this. If it works, why has there been no high-quality trials to prove this? In fact, iirc, the first person that can show any difference at all between a homeopathic solution and distilled water will win a million pounds from James Randi. Secondly, why is homeopathy only ever of any use for self-limiting illnesses?

 

At the end of the day I have no problem with people using whatever CAM they want, most will benefit to some extent from the placebo effect or simple regression to mean, and that can actually unburden the NHS. However, it should be treated like every other medical intervention; if you can't prove it works, then the NHS shouldn't pay for it.

 

Serious question - Have you ever considered a homeopath?

 

Just to pick one point out - the reason homeopathy hasnt had high quality trials to prove its usefulness is because the sort of trials you are talking about dont test how homeopathy works. You cant have a control group in homeopathy the whole point of it is treating the individual.

I have no idea about homeopathic solutions- iirc the boy was given sulphur tablets.

 

I dont know what a self limiting illness is so I cant answer that.

 

I discount the placebo effect because he was too young to understand he was even being given anything.

I cant disprove coincidence, but to my eyes it seemed a process took place over a number of visits that culminated in a excma free child.

 

I completely agree that it shouldnt be anything to do with the NHS though

Im not trying to convince anybody of anything tbh, I am just saying I went from a position of total cynicism to beleiving it worked for my son

 

Homeopathy is an ideal intervention to perform a double blind, placebo controlled trial on as it happens. You simply let the homeopath do their stuff, then when the patient goes to recieve their 'prescription' they are given the genuine article or a sugar pill (placebo). The important point is neither the patient of the homeopath is aware who gets what. It's actually a lot easier to test than many other interventions such as acupuncture.

 

I actually think your son benefitted from regression to mean, which is another way of saying he would have gotten better any way, which is typical in people with eczema, especially when they're young. But without a double blind RCT there is no way of knowing.

 

I haven't tried homeopathy personally as I regard it as a waste of money and I would not benefit from the placebo effect, being a non-believer. Homeopaths have actually agreed with me that my scepticism would effect the efficacy of it, so what does that say about it? It's essentially faith-based, that's what (if it really worked my scepticism should make no difference). Imo it's even worse than religion, as it's a mumbo jumbo pseudoscience. So there. :jesuswept:

 

 

Worse than religion - now Im narked. I realised as I was typing earlier I sound like a religous nut. In your position I wouldnt agree with me either tbh. My position is best described as I think it might be helpful to some in certain situations.

 

What do you think about acupuncture by the way?

 

I have to say I'm sceptical about it (but not as sceptical as with homeopathy). It may be of some benefit for some chronic pain syndromes, that's about it.

 

I know it's easy to recommend books but if you're spending a lot on acupuncture you may want to consider reading something like Trick or Treatment by Singh and Ernst. Ernst is actually a qualifed homeopath which is interesting. Anyway, they give the low down on the evidence base for most the complementary and alternative medicines and talk extensively about acupuncture. The first few chapters, the development of western 'evidence-based' medicine I think are useful for everyone to know about.

 

John Diamond (dead ex-husband of Nigella Lawson) also got half way though writing a brilliant book called snake oil before his cancer killed him. He was completely non-medical which makes it a very impressive achievement imo.

Edited by Renton

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It's years since i watched any simpsons but I always remember that scene...

 

Crowd: We need a cure! We need a cure!

Dr. Hibbert: Why, the only cure is bed rest. Anything I give you would only be a placebo.

Blonde Woman: Where do we get these placebos?

Man: Maybe there's some in this truck!

[the panicky crowd push over a truck, boxes labeled "danger killer bees" break open, the bees go everywhere and everyone panics, one man puts a bee in his mouth]

Man: I'm cured! I mean, ouch!

 

Not word for word like, that's IMDB

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