Police to be armed with stun guns

[Fop 1]

Have you got any data on the mortality rate in people shot with tasers Fop? From what I can tell it's too small to quantify by prospective studies and is isolated to a few case reports?

 

Apparently not enough people are dying for Fop to construct a proper argument.

 

Not at all, just trying to gauge the extent of the problem and how it compares with other methods of restraint. Nothing is entirely risk free.

 

That's the whole point, I absolutely agree and support there being a place for tasers (as I have already said in this thread), just that general distribution is NOT the place for them.

[Renton 17745]

Have you got any data on the mortality rate in people shot with tasers Fop? From what I can tell it's too small to quantify by prospective studies and is isolated to a few case reports?

 

It's several thousand in the USA and Canada (from police use).

 

The problem is if you get shot with a taser then die of a heart attack a few hours later, or crack your head on some concrete as you fall, it's almost certainly the taser (or being tasered) that caused your death, but it's not recorded as such.

 

The actual instant deaths from the taser effect are relatively few, but that doesn't mean the actual taser mortality is that small.

 

 

 

Even the officials recognise this (although they try to obscured the statistics, as above), as they aren't referred to as non-lethal much of the time.

 

Have you got a good source for that though, preferably peer reviewed etc? Thousands of deaths seems ridiculously high to me.

 

Got to say I'm sceptical about it causing a heart attack several hours later, I can't think of a mechanism that would account for that. Obviously falling onto concrete is problematic but no worse than getting battoned I would think. And probably safer than plastic bullets or of course live fire arms.

 

From my limited knowledge I'm happy for the police to have tasers, I doubt I've anything to worry about.

[Fop 1]

Have you got any data on the mortality rate in people shot with tasers Fop? From what I can tell it's too small to quantify by prospective studies and is isolated to a few case reports?

 

It's several thousand in the USA and Canada (from police use).

 

The problem is if you get shot with a taser then die of a heart attack a few hours later, or crack your head on some concrete as you fall, it's almost certainly the taser (or being tasered) that caused your death, but it's not recorded as such.

 

The actual instant deaths from the taser effect are relatively few, but that doesn't mean the actual taser mortality is that small.

 

 

 

Even the officials recognise this (although they try to obscured the statistics, as above), as they aren't referred to as non-lethal much of the time.

 

Have you got a good source for that though, preferably peer reviewed etc? Thousands of deaths seems ridiculously high to me.

 

Got to say I'm sceptical about it causing a heart attack several hours later, I can't think of a mechanism that would account for that. Obviously falling onto concrete is problematic but no worse than getting battoned I would think. And probably safer than plastic bullets or of course live fire arms.

 

From my limited knowledge I'm happy for the police to have tasers, I doubt I've anything to worry about.

 

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/we...7c-b5ff4bed3356

http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/storie...y.2b505a03.html

http://www.inclusiondaily.com/archives/06/...1006flrigby.htm

http://www.inclusiondaily.com/archives/06/...0106flrigby.htm

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_rel...art_attack_risk

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/police...6770542452.html

 

etc. etc.

 

 

Like I said before, I'm all for Tasers being used by specifically trained officers for situations where a gun is overkill, but physical restraint is too risky. However that's a long, long, long way from general issue of them to all front-line police officers.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Fop

[Fop 1]

And again the potential lethality is not the only issue with them in general use.

 

The UN classifies them as an instrument of torture, and the UK refused to deport to several countries where there may be a threat of taser torture.

 

So moving them from specific situations where they are a less lethal alternative to a gun, and into general use as a cattle-prod instrument of torture/police compliance is a HUGE difference human rights and liberty-wise.

[Renton 17745]

Well not thousands then, no where near it. You're making the assumption they will be used the same way here as in North America too, which I don't think is valid (due to cultural reasons and the increased threat of firearms over there). As for torture, well that again would very much depend on how they were used. Bring 'em on I say.

[Fop 1]

Well not thousands then, no where near it. You're making the assumption they will be used the same way here as in North America too, which I don't think is valid (due to cultural reasons and the increased threat of firearms over there). As for torture, well that again would very much depend on how they were used. Bring 'em on I say.

Yup, thousands were tasers were involved (again official statistics = )

 

 

Again the UN define USE of them as torture:

The U.N. Committee Against Torture referred Friday to the use of TaserX26 weapons which Portuguese police has acquired. An expert had testified to the committee that use of the weapons had "proven risks of harm or death."

 

"The use of TaserX26 weapons, provoking extreme pain, constituted a form of torture, and that in certain cases it could also cause death, as shown by several reliable studies and by certain cases that had happened after practical use," the committee said in a statement.

 

So we can't deport criminals to ourselves in the UK.

[manc-mag 1]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

[Renton 17745]

Well not thousands then, no where near it. You're making the assumption they will be used the same way here as in North America too, which I don't think is valid (due to cultural reasons and the increased threat of firearms over there). As for torture, well that again would very much depend on how they were used. Bring 'em on I say.

Yup, thousands were tasers were involved (again official statistics = )

 

 

Again the UN define USE of them as torture:

The U.N. Committee Against Torture referred Friday to the use of TaserX26 weapons which Portuguese police has acquired. An expert had testified to the committee that use of the weapons had "proven risks of harm or death."

 

"The use of TaserX26 weapons, provoking extreme pain, constituted a form of torture, and that in certain cases it could also cause death, as shown by several reliable studies and by certain cases that had happened after practical use," the committee said in a statement.

 

So we can't deport criminals to ourselves in the UK.

 

I was talking about taser mortality, obviously, not use. By that definition lots of things are torture. No doubt it will aid a lot of litigants when sueing for wrongful tasering though.

[Isegrim 8870]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

Waterboarding is a nasty thing to do. Ban water!

[Fop 1]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

A baton can be used in a number of ways (from a tap or a shove through to beating someone to death).

A taser just tasers. Which is I suspect why they deem it as such.

[Fop 1]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

Waterboarding is a nasty thing to do. Ban water!

Again the usual suspects throng with their usual attempts at nonsense.

[Fop 1]

I was talking about taser mortality, obviously, not use. By that definition lots of things are torture. No doubt it will aid a lot of litigants when sueing for wrongful tasering though.

 

Again no they are not, where as a taser does what it does, and it is torture (according to the UN).

[Fop 1]

The UN and Fop vs The Usual Suspects.

[manc-mag 1]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

A baton can be used in a number of ways (from a tap or a shove through to beating someone to death).

A taser just tasers. Which is I suspect why they deem it as such.

 

Yeah I know this funnily enough-and it also makes a counter point to a degree too. A baton often has to be used several times (causing aggregated injuries) where a taser is discharged once. That's not me arguing general issue is correct either by the way, just trying to marshall both arguments. One of my main bugbears about batons is where you seeing an officer swinging it several times before a person is effectively 'restrained/detained' etc.

Edited November 25, 2008 by manc-mag

[Isegrim 8870]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

Waterboarding is a nasty thing to do. Ban water!

Again the usual suspects throng with their usual attempts at nonsense.

While the usual suspect keeps on harping on his usual pseudo-intellectual drivel...

 

Bye.

[Fop 1]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

A baton can be used in a number of ways (from a tap or a shove through to beating someone to death).

A taser just tasers. Which is I suspect why they deem it as such.

 

Yeah I know this funnily enough-and it also makes a counter point to a degree too. A baton often has to be used several times (causing aggregated injuries) where a taser is discharged once. That's not me arguing general issue is correct either by the way, just trying to marshall both arguments. One of my main bugbears about batons is where you're seeing an officer swinging it several times before a person is effectively 'detained'.

 

Someone that requires to be beaten half to death to be stopped (form doing something dangerous, I'd assume - not stealing a packet of sweets, or something) is a good candidate for justified use of a taser.

 

However that's not an argument for general deployment of tasers, or at least if you claim it is then basically you are also claiming all police should be armed with conventional guns as well.

[Fop 1]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

Waterboarding is a nasty thing to do. Ban water!

Again the usual suspects throng with their usual attempts at nonsense.

While the usual suspect keeps on harping on his usual pseudo-intellectual drivel...

 

Bye.

You never had the stamina for it tbh.

[manc-mag 1]

The UN and Fop vs The Usual Suspects.

 

See this is where it all goes tits up and it becomes a bit pointless.

 

So presumably the UN would subscribe to your view that the UK is 'marching ever onwards towards a police state...'?

[Fop 1]

The UN and Fop vs The Usual Suspects.

 

See this is where it all goes tits up and it becomes a bit pointless.

 

So presumably the UN would subscribe to your view that the UK is 'marching ever onwards towards a police state...'?

Nope, just that taser use constitutes torture.

[Renton 17745]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

A baton can be used in a number of ways (from a tap or a shove through to beating someone to death).

A taser just tasers. Which is I suspect why they deem it as such.

 

Yeah I know this funnily enough-and it also makes a counter point to a degree too. A baton often has to be used several times (causing aggregated injuries) where a taser is discharged once. That's not me arguing general issue is correct either by the way, just trying to marshall both arguments. One of my main bugbears about batons is where you're seeing an officer swinging it several times before a person is effectively 'detained'.

 

Someone that requires to be beaten half to death to be stopped (form doing something dangerous, I'd assume - not stealing a packet of sweets, or something) is a good candidate for justified use of a taser.

 

However that's not an argument for general deployment of tasers, or at least if you claim it is then basically you are also claiming all police should be armed with conventional guns as well.

 

I don't follow your reasoning.

[manc-mag 1]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

A baton can be used in a number of ways (from a tap or a shove through to beating someone to death).

A taser just tasers. Which is I suspect why they deem it as such.

 

Yeah I know this funnily enough-and it also makes a counter point to a degree too. A baton often has to be used several times (causing aggregated injuries) where a taser is discharged once. That's not me arguing general issue is correct either by the way, just trying to marshall both arguments. One of my main bugbears about batons is where you're seeing an officer swinging it several times before a person is effectively 'detained'.

 

Someone that requires to be beaten half to death to be stopped (form doing something dangerous, I'd assume - not stealing a packet of sweets, or something) is a good candidate for justified use of a taser.

 

However that's not an argument for general deployment of tasers, or at least if you claim it is then basically you are also claiming all police should be armed with conventional guns as well.

 

I've never said I was for general deployment of tasers as you well know. My previous points stand.

[Fop 1]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

A baton can be used in a number of ways (from a tap or a shove through to beating someone to death).

A taser just tasers. Which is I suspect why they deem it as such.

 

Yeah I know this funnily enough-and it also makes a counter point to a degree too. A baton often has to be used several times (causing aggregated injuries) where a taser is discharged once. That's not me arguing general issue is correct either by the way, just trying to marshall both arguments. One of my main bugbears about batons is where you're seeing an officer swinging it several times before a person is effectively 'detained'.

 

Someone that requires to be beaten half to death to be stopped (form doing something dangerous, I'd assume - not stealing a packet of sweets, or something) is a good candidate for justified use of a taser.

 

However that's not an argument for general deployment of tasers, or at least if you claim it is then basically you are also claiming all police should be armed with conventional guns as well.

 

I don't follow your reasoning.

 

Because it's not an argument for general deployment (it's an argument for having tasers available - like conventional guns).

 

And because the only reason to have them on general deployment for such a purpose, would be to avoid having to call in the specialised officers....... but the same argument applies to conventional guns too.

[Fop 1]

I think the UN 'use'/torture point is a bit of a red herring tbh. Police batons can certainly be used as an instrument of torture for instance-the apartheid S.A police had it down to a fine art (amongst other methods).

A baton can be used in a number of ways (from a tap or a shove through to beating someone to death).

A taser just tasers. Which is I suspect why they deem it as such.

 

Yeah I know this funnily enough-and it also makes a counter point to a degree too. A baton often has to be used several times (causing aggregated injuries) where a taser is discharged once. That's not me arguing general issue is correct either by the way, just trying to marshall both arguments. One of my main bugbears about batons is where you're seeing an officer swinging it several times before a person is effectively 'detained'.

 

Someone that requires to be beaten half to death to be stopped (form doing something dangerous, I'd assume - not stealing a packet of sweets, or something) is a good candidate for justified use of a taser.

 

However that's not an argument for general deployment of tasers, or at least if you claim it is then basically you are also claiming all police should be armed with conventional guns as well.

 

I've never said I was for general deployment of tasers as you well know. My previous points stand.

Good. You agree with Fop and the UN then.

[manc-mag 1]

The UN and Fop vs The Usual Suspects.

 

See this is where it all goes tits up and it becomes a bit pointless.

 

So presumably the UN would subscribe to your view that the UK is 'marching ever onwards towards a police state...'?

Nope, just that taser use constitutes torture.

 

Well how on earth can you approve of it then in any circumstances?

 

As you have done.

[Fop 1]

The UN and Fop vs The Usual Suspects.

 

See this is where it all goes tits up and it becomes a bit pointless.

 

So presumably the UN would subscribe to your view that the UK is 'marching ever onwards towards a police state...'?

Nope, just that taser use constitutes torture.

 

Well how on earth can you approve of it then in any circumstances?

 

As you have done.

 

For the same reason as guns (both for and against in fact). Shooting people is never a "nice" idea, but it maybe the least worst option in some cases.

 

Or are you arguing that we should have no gun carrying police at all?