Guest alex Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Tbf Parky, it isn't. I agree with what he says (without the melodramatic polemic) about police treating different protests and so on differently. Whether they're correct in doing so at times is a different matter. (as to your last point, sensible isn't always right, even if it is sensible. Right is right. ) As to my last point, the world isn't that simple. Sometimes sensible is better than right. If one can define what right is all the time, which one can't. That's a general point rather than this where the policeman was in the wrong imo. The problem with allowing too much grey in areas that are by their nature pretty much black and white (racist ), is that you lose the moral high ground. How can someone defuse say a BNP activists bollocks if what they are saying happens to be correct? "Well you're right, but there were special circumstances" just isn't an answer it's a confirmation. If the police are going to be especially tolerant in some circumstances (for whatever reason), the only non-discriminatory course of action is to treat every one else in the same way. Anything else is wrong and is still digging a hole for themselves, just maybe in the other direction. I can see where you're coming from. I think it's more a case of assessing matters to do with the current climate, safety and so on. I essentially agree with you in principle btw. I just think it's impossible to have a perfect policy to please everyone and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 Tbf Parky, it isn't. I agree with what he says (without the melodramatic polemic) about police treating different protests and so on differently. Whether they're correct in doing so at times is a different matter. They treat different situations differently, granted, and quite correct imo (and not in Fop's opinion, I appreciate), but as you say that is a different matter really. To equate this to 'institutional racism' is absurd though. The least Fop could do would be admit he's used a bad choice of words, but even that to him is to admit too much. Hence the wind up on my behalf. I don't understand why Fop can't see that. Policing policy is reviewed monthly and to some extent influenced by Whitehall/Govt sub-committees and the like. Secondly, if Fop (or Alex) are irritated that at long last non-white people are getting some kind of more sensitive police handling then that's just tough shit. Let's face it they have had a pretty bad ride and faced Police brutality and general ill treatment/prejudice for the last 30 years or so. Revenge isn't any justification, especially as said revenge would likely mostly be taking place on people that had nothing to do with it. Not that it's about revenge, of course, but it is about building hate and discrimination for the future in a misguided attempt to appease today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Secondly, if Fop (or Alex) are irritated that at long last non-white people are getting some kind of more sensitive police handling then that's just tough shit. Let's face it they have had a pretty bad ride and faced Police brutality and general ill treatment/prejudice for the last 30 years or so. My view is that if certain groups - like Muslims, countryside alliance protestors and other "nice" groups are treat in the same way as football fans have been treat for 30 years then the outrage may lead to changes across the board - if thats the kind of "equality" Fop is after then I agree while relishing the squeals of people I don't like in the meantime. (By relishing I'm obviously not talking about the blokes death). Be nicer if everyone was treated with respect but in lieu of that I'm willing to give this a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 Tbf Parky, it isn't. I agree with what he says (without the melodramatic polemic) about police treating different protests and so on differently. Whether they're correct in doing so at times is a different matter. (as to your last point, sensible isn't always right, even if it is sensible. Right is right. ) As to my last point, the world isn't that simple. Sometimes sensible is better than right. If one can define what right is all the time, which one can't. That's a general point rather than this where the policeman was in the wrong imo. The problem with allowing too much grey in areas that are by their nature pretty much black and white (racist ), is that you lose the moral high ground. How can someone defuse say a BNP activists bollocks if what they are saying happens to be correct? "Well you're right, but there were special circumstances" just isn't an answer it's a confirmation. If the police are going to be especially tolerant in some circumstances (for whatever reason), the only non-discriminatory course of action is to treat every one else in the same way. Anything else is wrong and is still digging a hole for themselves, just maybe in the other direction. I can see where you're coming from. I think it's more a case of assessing matters to do with the current climate, safety and so on. I essentially agree with you in principle btw. I just think it's impossible to have a perfect policy to please everyone and so on. I just think start from genuine equality and work from there, even if people don't always like it, if you are acting from genuine equality they will struggle to criticise it in any lasting way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Tbf Parky, it isn't. I agree with what he says (without the melodramatic polemic) about police treating different protests and so on differently. Whether they're correct in doing so at times is a different matter. (as to your last point, sensible isn't always right, even if it is sensible. Right is right. ) As to my last point, the world isn't that simple. Sometimes sensible is better than right. If one can define what right is all the time, which one can't. That's a general point rather than this where the policeman was in the wrong imo. The problem with allowing too much grey in areas that are by their nature pretty much black and white (racist ), is that you lose the moral high ground. How can someone defuse say a BNP activists bollocks if what they are saying happens to be correct? "Well you're right, but there were special circumstances" just isn't an answer it's a confirmation. If the police are going to be especially tolerant in some circumstances (for whatever reason), the only non-discriminatory course of action is to treat every one else in the same way. Anything else is wrong and is still digging a hole for themselves, just maybe in the other direction. I can see where you're coming from. I think it's more a case of assessing matters to do with the current climate, safety and so on. I essentially agree with you in principle btw. I just think it's impossible to have a perfect policy to please everyone and so on. I just think start from genuine equality and work from there, even if people don't always like it, if you are acting from genuine equality they will struggle to criticise it in any lasting way. That's fair enough and my standpoint too generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3977 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Secondly, if Fop (or Alex) are irritated that at long last non-white people are getting some kind of more sensitive police handling then that's just tough shit. Let's face it they have had a pretty bad ride and faced Police brutality and general ill treatment/prejudice for the last 30 years or so. My view is that if certain groups - like Muslims, countryside alliance protestors and other "nice" groups are treat in the same way as football fans have been treat for 30 years then the outrage may lead to changes across the board - if thats the kind of "equality" Fop is after then I agree while relishing the squeals of people I don't like in the meantime. (By relishing I'm obviously not talking about the blokes death). Be nicer if everyone was treated with respect but in lieu of that I'm willing to give this a try. I'm not saying coppers should become powerless - just better trained to spot whether members of whatever group they are policing at the time "deserve" a whack or not on an individual basis - not on a "today we hit people/grin and bear it" policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Fuck this shit anyway, ObaGol's lurking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 Secondly, if Fop (or Alex) are irritated that at long last non-white people are getting some kind of more sensitive police handling then that's just tough shit. Let's face it they have had a pretty bad ride and faced Police brutality and general ill treatment/prejudice for the last 30 years or so. My view is that if certain groups - like Muslims, countryside alliance protestors and other "nice" groups are treat in the same way as football fans have been treat for 30 years then the outrage may lead to changes across the board - if thats the kind of "equality" Fop is after then I agree while relishing the squeals of people I don't like in the meantime. (By relishing I'm obviously not talking about the blokes death). Be nicer if everyone was treated with respect but in lieu of that I'm willing to give this a try. I'm not saying coppers should become powerless - just better trained to spot whether members of whatever group they are policing at the time "deserve" a whack or not on an individual basis - not on a "today we hit people/grin and bear it" policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Secondly, if Fop (or Alex) are irritated that at long last non-white people are getting some kind of more sensitive police handling then that's just tough shit. Let's face it they have had a pretty bad ride and faced Police brutality and general ill treatment/prejudice for the last 30 years or so. My view is that if certain groups - like Muslims, countryside alliance protestors and other "nice" groups are treat in the same way as football fans have been treat for 30 years then the outrage may lead to changes across the board - if thats the kind of "equality" Fop is after then I agree while relishing the squeals of people I don't like in the meantime. (By relishing I'm obviously not talking about the blokes death). Be nicer if everyone was treated with respect but in lieu of that I'm willing to give this a try. I'm not saying coppers should become powerless - just better trained to spot whether members of whatever group they are policing at the time "deserve" a whack or not on an individual basis - not on a "today we hit people/grin and bear it" policy. I know what you meant btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17745 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Secondly, if Fop (or Alex) are irritated that at long last non-white people are getting some kind of more sensitive police handling then that's just tough shit. Let's face it they have had a pretty bad ride and faced Police brutality and general ill treatment/prejudice for the last 30 years or so. My view is that if certain groups - like Muslims, countryside alliance protestors and other "nice" groups are treat in the same way as football fans have been treat for 30 years then the outrage may lead to changes across the board - if thats the kind of "equality" Fop is after then I agree while relishing the squeals of people I don't like in the meantime. (By relishing I'm obviously not talking about the blokes death). Out of interest NJS have you recently had any trouble from police at away grounds? I've been to quite a few now (mainly in the last 10 years or so) and can honestly say I've not experienced any untoward policing, except maybe at Villa where they were a bit twattish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3977 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Out of interest NJS have you recently had any trouble from police at away grounds? I've been to quite a few now (mainly in the last 10 years or so) and can honestly say I've not experienced any untoward policing, except maybe at Villa where they were a bit twattish. Not really - last couple of years I've only been to the London games which are always civilised these days and Sunderland. The last two years for the latter I've gone by train/metro and found it a strange mix of very decent coppers and ones who look like they are itching for it to kick off all the time - maybe they are the football fans who feel the tension. I'd fully admit that my attitudes and experiences were formed by away games in the good/bad old days and things have changed a lot - however I'd also argue that the protests we've referred to here and others show that the police themselves haven't necesaarily "calmed down". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Secondly, if Fop (or Alex) are irritated that at long last non-white people are getting some kind of more sensitive police handling then that's just tough shit. Let's face it they have had a pretty bad ride and faced Police brutality and general ill treatment/prejudice for the last 30 years or so. My view is that if certain groups - like Muslims, countryside alliance protestors and other "nice" groups are treat in the same way as football fans have been treat for 30 years then the outrage may lead to changes across the board - if thats the kind of "equality" Fop is after then I agree while relishing the squeals of people I don't like in the meantime. (By relishing I'm obviously not talking about the blokes death). Out of interest NJS have you recently had any trouble from police at away grounds? I've been to quite a few now (mainly in the last 10 years or so) and can honestly say I've not experienced any untoward policing, except maybe at Villa where they were a bit twattish. these days it's not so much the police as the damn Stewards - Villa's are particularly awful - which is a shame because there is very little trouble there Reading's set new standards of stupidity when they were up but that's probably because they've spent a lifetime dealing with Milwall, Cardiff and Swansea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 Out of interest NJS have you recently had any trouble from police at away grounds? I've been to quite a few now (mainly in the last 10 years or so) and can honestly say I've not experienced any untoward policing, except maybe at Villa where they were a bit twattish. Not really - last couple of years I've only been to the London games which are always civilised these days and Sunderland. The last two years for the latter I've gone by train/metro and found it a strange mix of very decent coppers and ones who look like they are itching for it to kick off all the time - maybe they are the football fans who feel the tension. I'd fully admit that my attitudes and experiences were formed by away games in the good/bad old days and things have changed a lot - however I'd also argue that the protests we've referred to here and others show that the police themselves haven't necesaarily "calmed down". Actually they are coming in for a fair bit of criticism now from pretty much all areas for being "overly aggressive" in their G20 policing (which is certainly also the case at times with football fans) - whether that would have been the case without this particular incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Batton strike caught on film from another angle. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/ap...tomlinson-video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Looks like I was right. "Knapton said there was a plausible biological explanation for stress being a trigger. Stress is associated with a surge of the "fight or flight" hormone adrenaline, which causes blood to be diverted around the body and puts an extra strain on the heart." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Batton strike caught on film from another angle. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/ap...tomlinson-video That's pretty serious whack before the shove then. Really it's the polices own fault, they should have maced him then tasered him just to be sure... clearly weren't paying attention in training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Looks like I was right."Knapton said there was a plausible biological explanation for stress being a trigger. Stress is associated with a surge of the "fight or flight" hormone adrenaline, which causes blood to be diverted around the body and puts an extra strain on the heart." It's absolutely linked, it's just medically it can't be forensically linked as well as a blow = bleed = death. It's a bit like how DNA evidence was/is seriously overweighted, only in reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 That is basically an unprovoked criminal assault. End of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Looks like I was right."Knapton said there was a plausible biological explanation for stress being a trigger. Stress is associated with a surge of the "fight or flight" hormone adrenaline, which causes blood to be diverted around the body and puts an extra strain on the heart." If it hadn't been that it would have been Ukraine's equaliser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 From the Telegraph: But the scope of the "shocking" incident widened as another witness said that the newspaper seller had been manhandled about 15 minutes before the incident seen in the video footage. Anna Branthwaite, a photographer, said that Mr Tomlinson was shoved to the ground and struck twice with a baton before being picked up by the officer, who continued to push him along the street. A third witness is believed to have claimed the 47-year-old had a confrontation with police in the hour before his death. The Daily Telegraph understands that four Metropolitan police officers suspected to be involved in the incident came forward yesterday - including the Territorial Support Group officer in riot gear seen pushing Mr Tomlinson in the video footage. The IPCC will now decide whether to suspend him from duty pending their investigation, and will question him "as soon as possible". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 From the Telegraph: But the scope of the "shocking" incident widened as another witness said that the newspaper seller had been manhandled about 15 minutes before the incident seen in the video footage. Anna Branthwaite, a photographer, said that Mr Tomlinson was shoved to the ground and struck twice with a baton before being picked up by the officer, who continued to push him along the street. A third witness is believed to have claimed the 47-year-old had a confrontation with police in the hour before his death. The Daily Telegraph understands that four Metropolitan police officers suspected to be involved in the incident came forward yesterday - including the Territorial Support Group officer in riot gear seen pushing Mr Tomlinson in the video footage. The IPCC will now decide whether to suspend him from duty pending their investigation, and will question him "as soon as possible". IPCC skilfully covering it's own back well...... wonder how they'll fudge this one. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7991206.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Hopefully there'll be an investigation in the same way as there would be if it was just civilians involved. That's what we all want, surely? Re: the guy though, if he'd already had an altercation with the police, his actions in the later video don't tie in with someone 'just wanting to get away to see the England match' either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17745 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Looks like I was right."Knapton said there was a plausible biological explanation for stress being a trigger. Stress is associated with a surge of the "fight or flight" hormone adrenaline, which causes blood to be diverted around the body and puts an extra strain on the heart." If it hadn't been that it would have been Ukraine's equaliser. Probably tongue in cheek I know but that's essentially correct, he would have died from a generalised reaction to stress. That wouldn't happen in a healthy person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/busine...g20/7988812.stm Interesting stuff on his route and where he was assaulted (and whether it happened twice). It's also interesting how much the police (and IPCC) are changing the "official" version of events - very Jean Charles de Menezes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Looks like I was right."Knapton said there was a plausible biological explanation for stress being a trigger. Stress is associated with a surge of the "fight or flight" hormone adrenaline, which causes blood to be diverted around the body and puts an extra strain on the heart." If it hadn't been that it would have been Ukraine's equaliser. Probably tongue in cheek I know but that's essentially correct, he would have died from a generalised reaction to stress. That wouldn't happen in a healthy person. It is quite possible to get through life without getting stressed to the point of an unprovoked violent assault, I guess even you must have gone a week without one, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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