Evolution suffers Kansas setback

[Renton 17723]

Isn't interesting that you can put forward these beliefs in the US. I wonder if you could do this in places like pakistan or iran?

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Erm, what's the relevance?

 

Surely your not trying to hijack this thread and turn it into an immigrant/PC gone mad one are you?

[Gemmill 34338]

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sissyreader.html

 

Nancy Boy Chrissy, the bed wetting sissy.

 

Do you know someone whose child seems a bit effeminate? Does he dress a little too neatly? Take too much time with his schoolwork? Is he suspiciously polite to grown-ups? Well, "Nancy Boy Chrissy, the Bed Wetting Sissy" is just the holiday gift to provide the tools his parents will need to embarrass and taunt him back to masculinity.

 

This beautifully illustrated book tells the story of Christopher Pansy, a 12-year old boy who is gayer than a May Pole. He is a constant humiliation to his normal, Christian parents.....

[NJS 3973]

Dawkins makes a very good case, and I agree with him but I don't like his 100% certainty, 99.999% is fine but that irked me a little.  I suppose maybe that's how you have to argue with this particular bunch.

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I agree he's a zealot and some of his "this is a fact" rhetoric leaves me uneasy at times but I admire his willingness to stand up and quite literally be a target for stating his views.

 

I wish more people had the courage to stand firm against ignorance.

[Renton 17723]

Dawkins makes a very good case, and I agree with him but I don't like his 100% certainty, 99.999% is fine but that irked me a little.  I suppose maybe that's how you have to argue with this particular bunch.

54494[/snapback]

 

 

I agree he's a zealot and some of his "this is a fact" rhetoric leaves me uneasy at times but I admire his willingness to stand up and quite literally be a target for stating his views.

 

I wish more people had the courage to stand firm against ignorance.

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I'm hopefully meeting Dawkins in the New Year. I agree he comes across as a zealot, and maybe a bit smug too, but he's preaching to the converted in my case, so I don't mind much.

 

He married doctor Who's assistant as well. A cave girl iirc.

[NJS 3973]

Dawkins makes a very good case, and I agree with him but I don't like his 100% certainty, 99.999% is fine but that irked me a little.  I suppose maybe that's how you have to argue with this particular bunch.

54494[/snapback]

 

 

I agree he's a zealot and some of his "this is a fact" rhetoric leaves me uneasy at times but I admire his willingness to stand up and quite literally be a target for stating his views.

 

I wish more people had the courage to stand firm against ignorance.

54513[/snapback]

 

 

I'm hopefully meeting Dawkins in the New Year. I agree he comes across as a zealot, and maybe a bit smug too, but he's preaching to the converted in my case, so I don't mind much.

 

He married doctor Who's assistant as well. A cave girl iirc.

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No Lalla Ward was a female Time Lord - sorry for the geekdom

 

I saw him on a late night discussion show a few months ago about religion - he came across well with his "You're right and every other belief system is wrong" summary of their basic flaw.

[Mags 1]

Hmmm... evolution is a theory, and there is no actual concrete proof of a 'God' being, just a theory/belief. Apples and oranges anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Damn rednecks- as if inbreeding wasn't bad enough, now they want to discredit any ideas that require thought or words containing more than two syllables.

Edited November 9, 2005 by Mags

[Renton 17723]

Hmmm... evolution is a theory, and there is no actual concrete proof of a 'God' being, just a theory/belief. Apples and oranges anyone?

 

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Hardly comparable. One has substantial evidence and a credible mechanism to support it, the other is pure faith.

[adios 717]

Hmmm... evolution is a theory, and there is no actual concrete proof of a 'God' being, just a theory/belief. Apples and oranges anyone?

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I think I might be being whooshed here but, no. Thousands of years of research versus a fanciful story.

 

Voltaire dismisses a benevolent, omnipotent God in about 2 sentences, killing God completely takes a little more work.

[Mags 1]

Slight whoosh- there was a distinct tinge of sarcasm meant to be conveyed in my last post regarding their dismissal of evolution as a mere 'theory' compared to the religious right's almost fanatical acceptance of God and the Bible as absolute truth.

[luckyluke 1]

Sarcasm doesn't travel well over the internet. And it doesn't help that you're American.

[Mags 1]

Sarcasm doesn't travel well over the internet. And it doesn't help that you're American.

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Ah that's right. We aren't supposed to be capable of it. And wit... now that's unheard of.

[adios 717]

Ah that's right. We aren't supposed to be capable of it. And wit... now that's unheard of.

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In fairness I did think you were on a wind-up, but not knowing you/your posting style I couldn't be sure. I forgot how stupid people could actually be until I had to post on another forum yesterday. We're blessed with the largely clued in members on this forum.

 

Luke - Shame on you, there's plenty of intelligent Americans! In Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Chile, Peru, Canada...

[luckyluke 1]

That wasn't what I was implying (but good point!).

 

I was inferring that you're more likely to believe in looneybin creationist theories.

[shakermaker 0]

Just read an interesting article this morning:

 

Evolution is fact

 

The morons can't grasp the time periods involved - I find it hard having read a few books on the subject. The common ancestor we share with Chimpanzees lived 6 million years ago - a scary concept which pales into insignificance compared with the 3.5 billion years of life itself.

 

I recently finished "The Ancestors Tale" by Dawkins and I'd recommend it. In the final paragraph he states his view which I share which is as follows:

 

"My objection to supernatural beliefs is precisely that they fail miserably to do justice to the sublime grandeur of the real world. They represent a narrowing-down of reality, an impoverishment of what the real world has to offer".

 

The idiots in Kansas fear knowledge - knowledge is the enemy of faith.

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That said, Dawkins is a bit of a twat. I've tried to read his work in the past and given up.

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dawkins is abit of a twat ????(the selfish gene is understandable,if you want to understand something that you can comprehend but fucks up your beleif system try matt ridleys "nature vs nurture")

 

 

popes advocate no contraception!!!!!(no sense of fun)

[Renton 17723]

Dawkins makes a very good case, and I agree with him but I don't like his 100% certainty, 99.999% is fine but that irked me a little.  I suppose maybe that's how you have to argue with this particular bunch.

54494[/snapback]

 

 

I agree he's a zealot and some of his "this is a fact" rhetoric leaves me uneasy at times but I admire his willingness to stand up and quite literally be a target for stating his views.

 

I wish more people had the courage to stand firm against ignorance.

54513[/snapback]

 

You've hit the nail on the head there, it's his rhetoric dressed up as scientific fact that really grates with me.

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Care to share any of this rhetoric that's dressed up as fact Bridget? I'm really not sure where you're coming from there? I don't think I have ever heard him say something that wasn't factually correct - well not unless you are going nit-pick on the semantics on what constitutes a fact that is.

 

One of the things he does try to do is get his ideas across using analogies - something I have always felt he has done well, but maybe not it seems.

Edited November 10, 2005 by Renton

[shakermaker 0]

the main thing dawkins does is try to put his point over,very complicated though it is,in an understandable manner,when it comes to putting a point over he kicks the arse of that aquinas bloke.

[ChocChip 0]

[/i]The problem i think is that when someone says i believe in God and he created everything, everyone pictures of baby Jesus and The Spanish Inquisition and all the Religious wars or the down right bizarre ideas that all white people were created by an evil black scientist and pretty soon a spaceship will come and take all us good, righteous brothers and sisters back to Planet X, etc.

 

As a quick aside, were an ethnic person claim to believe in God and they were shouted down and ridiculed it would be said to be cultural intolerance/imperialism but if a western person declares a religious belief they're fair game for all sorts of dissmissive comments and and sarcasm as if they were somehow meant to know better and treated like some kind of social pariah at parties, etc. It's as if the other 'savages' are quite entitled to amuse themselves with these fancy notions. This is my observation of life in general and in no way related to comments on this board.

 

The idea to me that there is some intelligent agent at work with the universe creation makes more sense than the idea that everything is as it is by many, many acts of chance. The idea of the big bang would appear logical, what initiated the big bang? Where did the energy come from to spark the process? Was it a previous collapse? If so, what started the big bang before this one then? How did the matter come to be ther in the first place? Ad infinitum. Someone said that there are evolutioary theories to explain our doubts on evolution, what theories explain every culture's belief in Gods/Deities? Surely such a thought process is counter-productive if it leads one to believe that praying to a rock will help you more than actually dealing/accepting the problem at hand. What the hell kind of gene is that? Why does every (i think) human society have beliefs in 'higher powers' either currently or at some point in their history? Such a thought process would appear to me to be contrary to survival. As does a system of morality. If we animals like everything else then there is no wrong in stealing, lying, cheating, beating, raping and murdering if it makes a life easier and aids the spread of our genes. These things happen, quite a lot actually, and yet why are they disapproved of? If it happens to us, we won't like it, if it happens to someone else, surely that can only help our position because it has made a rival for resources and breeding mates weaker which would be a good thing.

 

The fact that their are ideas of 'God' is very poignant imo. As to the nature of said entity, i have no idea. There is a lack of evidence and yet maybe the structure and beautiful but apparent coincidence of so many events to make the universe we live in will always beg the question, could it be possible that something other than chance has influenced what we see around us?

 

I repeat i am not in any way scientifically hejamucated, just a simple street hustler and these are my occasional muses betwixt crack binges which i humbly submit before my betters on here

[Shearergol 0]

Can I assume that we don't have many Christians on this board then?

[Renton 17723]

[/i]The problem i think is that when someone says i believe in God and he created everything, everyone pictures of baby Jesus and The Spanish Inquisition and all the Religious wars or the down right bizarre ideas that all white people were created by an evil black scientist and pretty soon a spaceship will come and take all us good, righteous brothers and sisters back to Planet X, etc.

 

As a quick aside, were an ethnic person claim to believe in God and they were shouted down and ridiculed it would be said to be cultural intolerance/imperialism but if a western person declares a religious belief they're fair game for all sorts of dissmissive comments and and sarcasm as if they were somehow meant to know better and treated like some kind of social pariah at parties, etc. It's as if the other 'savages' are quite entitled to amuse themselves with these fancy notions. This is my observation of life in general and in no way related to comments on this board.

 

The idea to me that there is some intelligent agent at work with the universe creation makes more sense than the idea that everything is as it is by many, many acts of chance. The idea of the big bang would appear logical, what initiated the big bang? Where did the energy come from to spark the process? Was it a previous collapse? If so, what started the big bang before this one then? How did the matter come to be ther in the first place?  Ad infinitum. Someone said that there are evolutioary theories to explain our doubts on evolution, what theories explain every culture's belief in Gods/Deities? Surely such a thought process is counter-productive if it leads one to believe that praying to a rock will help you more than actually dealing/accepting the problem at hand. What the hell kind of gene is that? Why does every (i think) human society have beliefs in 'higher powers' either currently or at some point in their history? Such a thought process would appear to me to be contrary to survival. As does a system of morality. If we animals like everything else then there is no wrong in stealing, lying, cheating, beating, raping and murdering if it makes a life easier and aids the spread of our genes. These things happen, quite a lot actually, and yet why are they disapproved of? If it happens to us, we won't like it, if it happens to someone else, surely that can only help our position because it has made a rival for resources and breeding mates weaker which would be a good thing.

 

The fact that their are ideas of 'God' is very poignant imo. As to the nature of said entity, i have no idea. There is a lack of evidence and yet maybe the structure and beautiful but apparent coincidence of so many events to make the universe we live in will always beg the question, could it be possible that something other than chance has influenced what we see around us?

 

I repeat i am not in any way scientifically hejamucated, just a simple street hustler and these are my occasional muses betwixt crack binges which i humbly submit before my betters on here 

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You make some interesting points. The fact that all socieities have a belief in God does not in any way prove that God exists. We have evolved to a social being whose survival depends on mutual co-operation. God is a man-made concept to get people to tow the line - look at the religious rules like don't eat pork - these were all practical advice at the time they were written (although interestingly not all apply now). Also factor in human's terrible fear of death and its not hard to see how the concept of God and heaven arose.

 

I think part of the problem is that human beings have a perception that many unlikely co-incidences would have been necessary to form the world we live in. Not at all, in fact there is no other way it could have happened. The fact we are here to observe the universe means that conditions had to be just right - I think this is called the anthropomorphic principal or something. Once the first living cell was formed, the rest was really inevitable I think.

 

As for the big bang and what created or preceded it, who knows? But to have faith that some kind of higher power with a human-like intelligence or benevolence was behind it is pretty absurd in my book. Anyway, the physicists will have this one sussed in a few decades, removing the need for God completely. What place for God and the Church then?

[Guest alex]

Just for the record, I'm happy to take the piss out of anyone's religious beliefs regardless of their ethnic background/nationality

[adios 717]

CC: You can't accept the fact that an eternity of nothingness suddenly became something very. very simple and over billions upon billions of years very slowly developed into highly complex organisms but you're happier to believe that some highly complex and sentient super being came from nothingness to start off a process in a rather round about sort of way? They have recreated events af fraction of a second after the big bang in particle accelerators by the way. The only missing piece is how that first 'accident' occured.

 

As for man creating God? There are so many answers to that question it's difficult to know what to say. You try getting a being who builds his entire universe around himself to accept that at some point in the near future he will cease to exist but 'his' universe will carry on regardless. What does the psyche do when it needs to replace the 'God' of parenthood as it matures?

[Renton 17723]

Just for the record, I'm happy to take the piss out of anyone's religious beliefs regardless of their ethnic background/nationality

54793[/snapback]

 

 

In posts of one sentence or less.

[ChocChip 0]

This is some of the Nation of Islam (Black Muslim) theology. You gotta love this....

 

A.Scriptures

The Nation of Islam feels that both the Koran and the Bible have been tampered with.

“The Bible and the Holy Qur’an are filled with truth that leads up to the judgment…. The

enemy [the white man] has tampered with the truth in both books; for he has been permitted

to handle both books” (Muhammad, Message, 90).

They are looking for another book, which is forthcoming. “Both the present Bible and

the Holy Qur’an must soon give way to that Holy Book which no man as yet but Allah has

seen. The teachings (prophecies) of the present Bible and Qur’an take us up to the resurrection

and judgment of this world, but not into the next life” (Muhammad, Message, 97).

The Bible is refered to as “the Poison Book” (Muhammad, Message, 94).

B.Ultimate reality

In contrast to biblical teaching, the Nation of Islam teaching that in the beginning a

triple blackness of space, water, and divinity existed.

C. God/gods

Seventy-six trillion years ago God willed himself into existence out of the blackness of

space and water. This process took him six trillion years. God is a black man and His name

is Allah.

There are many gods of varying degrees. No god is eternal; he lives and dies

(Muhammad, Message, 9).

Allah, who created the universe, was the most powerful god. He is surpassed only by

Elijah Muhammad, the god whose coming was prophesied in the Holy Scripture. Elijah

Muhammad is wiser than all the other gods.

At one time there was a council of 24 black-scientist gods. One of them acted as God

while the others worked on getting the future together for the Nation.

D. Creation

After Allah came into existence, he created the black race out of the black material in

the darkness of space. He then created the universe.

E.Man

The original inhabitants of earth were all black, belonging to the tribe of Shabass. They

were divine beings and created good.

The black people became divided. An evil scientist named Yacub was born in the

dissenting group. From childhood he determined to develop a race that would rule the

black people.

Yacub and his followers were eventually imprisoned for voicing their dissatisfaction

and exiled to the island of Patmos. There he began to develop a new race by experimenting

with mutations. In the process he created the red and yellow races and, after 600 years,

a completely white race devoid of any of the original, divine substance. This new race of

people was neither human nor made by God, but “devils,” without any capacity for good.The white people were released from the island of Patmos. They began conquering

nations around the world, making slaves of black people, imposing on them an inferior

religion—Christianity, and depriving them of their cultural heritage. Allah allowed this white

supremacy to occur for 6000 years, a period that ended in 1914. Now is the time for the

Nation of Islam to regroup and regain an ascendant position.

F.Jesus

From various sources, we find that according the Nation of Islam, Jesus was:

-only a mortal man and a prophet, not God (Muhammad, Our Savior, 195),

-a black man who tried to redeem the black Moabites and was executed by the white Romans,

-a Muslim, not a Christian (Muhammad, Message, 22), and

-He did not rise from the dead (Muhammad, Our Savior, 195, 210).

G. Salvation

Black people can reach perfection and realize their divine potential by doing what is

right and forbidding what is wrong (i.e. following the Holy Koran). Eventually they will become

a nation of gods and dwell in paradise for all eternity.

No possibility exists for reforming white people because they are pure evil. For perfection

to occur, they must be annihilated.

H. Judgment

A great spaceship, the Mother Plane, will carry out Allah’s judgment (Muhammad, The

Final Call, 19). This judgment will not only destroy the white race but also Christianity.

 

This stuff is magic imo

[Guest alex]

I think religion was originally a way of explaining things that couldn't be explained by science in ancient times (i.e. natural disasters, the chaning of the seasons etc.) I've never really bought into it, even as a small child. That said, I think it's harmless enough so long as people who are of a certain religion respect the views of people who aren't. I do find it a fascinating subject though, especially when you look at the historical events that shaped the beliefs we have in the world today.

[Renton 17723]

Choc Chip: So is that some elaborate piss take then?

 

Forgive the naivity, sometimes it's very hard to tell.

Edited November 10, 2005 by Renton