Geordie

[JawD 31]

So, do you consider "Geordie" as in spoken word, a dialect, slang, or a language? At the same time, do you consider Scots a dialect or a language?

 

Discuss

[PaddockLad 14528]

"Geordie" is a dialect, which makes use of lots of slang words, many of them Anglian in origin.

 

"Scots", better known as either "lallans" or "lowlands scots" is allegedly a language (according to the porrigde mooths), but it is a in reality just a dialect, with, in the south east of Scotland, many similarities to "Geordie". The western version, as spoken by Robbie Burns, is quite different in some ways, being influenced more by the Gaelic spoken in Galloway until (comparatively) fairly recently.

Edited September 12, 2009 by PaddockLad

[JawD 31]

 

See now I disagree. I know that Geordie is classed as a local dialect, however, the words that set us apart from others are actually words largely taken from Anglo-Saxon origin with some norman / scandanavian influence. What I mean is, we have continued to use older words (or based on older words that have evolved somewhat over time) rather than replace them.

 

Now Scots, as I reckon you know, is actually taken from the same base as ours (go back to knowing that Edinburgh was once in Northumberland or that the North East was once part of Scotland, the origins of our language is the same - low land Scots as you say, not the highlands / west). So, whatever one is, the other should really be?

 

I agree with you that both are really the same, but while you say diallect, I think language.

 

Many people see the north east language as "slang". Saying that we are not speaking properly if we say "Toon, Larn, Wife, Lass" or such, while in fact, we are speaking exactly right, just an older form of language?

 

Not saying Im right like, but I reckon I have a fair arguement

 

Oh, and one for Stevie, did you know we used to speak Welsh?

[PaddockLad 14528]

 

See now I disagree. I know that Geordie is classed as a local dialect, however, the words that set us apart from others are actually words largely taken from Anglo-Saxon origin with some norman / scandanavian influence. What I mean is, we have continued to use older words (or based on older words that have evolved somewhat over time) rather than replace them.

 

Now Scots, as I reckon you know, is actually taken from the same base as ours (go back to knowing that Edinburgh was once in Northumberland or that the North East was once part of Scotland, the origins of our language is the same - low land Scots as you say, not the highlands / west). So, whatever one is, the other should really be?

 

I agree with you that both are really the same, but while you say diallect, I think language.

 

Many people see the north east language as "slang". Saying that we are not speaking properly if we say "Toon, Larn, Wife, Lass" or such, while in fact, we are speaking exactly right, just an older form of language?

 

Not saying Im right like, but I reckon I have a fair arguement

 

Oh, and one for Stevie, did you know we used to speak Welsh?

 

The thing is, a lot of those words are just the way we pronounce words that are in use in everyday English spoken all over the world....."wor" is just another way of saying "our" and comes from the same root word, which technically makes the way we speak a dialect rather than an individual, stand alone language, regardless of how far back some of the pronounciations go.

 

We did indeed all speak Brythonic (early Welsh) all over the British Isles until waves of Saxon and Anglian immigration, raids form Pictish and Scottish (ie Irish) pirates and of course the Roman invasion pushed most of the speakers of the language westwards into the mountains of what is now Wales, where the language continues to thrive, which in itself is a minor miracle, having been under huge threat for two thousand years, and from the two greatest empires the world has ever seen. Cornish, Breton,Scots,Irish,Manx,Galloway and Deeside Gaelic are all either extinct or dying, but Welsh survives, which I quite like

 

Near where my old man was brought up in the Cheviots there's a place called Pennymuir:

 

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=37550...searchp=ids.srf

 

its a very historic place:

 

http://www.discovertheborders.co.uk/places/136.html

 

not least for the actual name itself, which has survived in its original brythonic form, unchanged since someone first named it two millenia ago:

 

penn= "at the head"

 

y= "of"

 

muir= "the walls".....(of the roman camp)

 

for further confirmation look at the map of Wales where you find it unchanged as wel in Penn y ghent etc....

 

Makes you think doesn't it Stevie?....we're all fuckin taffs!

[JawD 31]

Well not quite.

 

Gan, for example, is taken from the Anglo-Saxon word "Gangan" meaning "go". So when we say we gan somewhere, its not slang for go, it actually meant go just we still use the older word?

Wife from the word "Wif" or "Wiif" (Dutch).

 

Marra, incidently came from the pitts as another example of sources.

 

So, its not really how we pronounce everyday words now, they are largely from our past and stil used today.

[PaddockLad 14528]

Well not quite.

 

Gan, for example, is taken from the Anglo-Saxon word "Gangan" meaning "go". So when we say we gan somewhere, its not slang for go, it actually meant go just we still use the older word?

Wife from the word "Wif" or "Wiif" (Dutch).

 

Marra, incidently came from the pitts as another example of sources.

 

So, its not really how we pronounce everyday words now, they are largely from our past and stil used today.

 

Yeah, and many of them are the root of words used in modern English, so we're using the same words, but just pronouncing them differently, whcih means it's essentially the same language but a different dialect.

[JawD 31]

So, we're essentially using the original language? Its every other fucker thats got it wrong

 

Tbf, we know the english language (and people) are a vast mix of all sorts of influence.

 

I started this due to a discussion I had with a Scottish bloke on holiday where he was saying Scots was a language and Geordie was a dialect. I was saying they were both from the same source and therefore the same either both a language or both a dialect, not one the other.

 

It is a topic Im interested in like. Not just the language, but the history of the north east (including our relationship with them down the road).

[PaddockLad 14528]

So, we're essentially using the original language? Its every other fucker thats got it wrong

 

Tbf, we know the english language (and people) are a vast mix of all sorts of influence.

 

I started this due to a discussion I had with a Scottish bloke on holiday where he was saying Scots was a language and Geordie was a dialect. I was saying they were both from the same source and therefore the same either both a language or both a dialect, not one the other.

 

It is a topic Im interested in like. Not just the language, but the history of the north east (including our relationship with them down the road).

 

The porrigde mooth was wrong, and was probably trying to make some sort of fucked up nationalistic point.

 

Try these for interesting stuff about the origins of how we speak today and local (mainly Nothumbrian) history, all by Alistair Moffat...

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_0_12?u...ix=alistair+mof

[JawD 31]

Cheers, Ill maybe pick a couple of those up.

 

In return, Id recommend : Northern Roots

[Guest Stevie]

Both are dialects, they're not really languages. Sadly the geordie spoken by people in their 70s, 80s and 90s is gradually being eroded, and we're all beginning to talk a more English conformist watered down geordie accent like Jimmy Nail in Spender.

 

There's not just one jock accent. I can differentiate at least 5, they are dialects, but become a different language depending on the amount of buckfast consumed.

[Monkeys Fist 38571]

This is a topic I find fascinating( and the related one of place name origins).

Sure I heard/read somewhere that our dialect/language is the closest to Old English as it was spoken.

The area is riddled with "-ingtons, and -ingworths", all meaning the same thing

e.g. Killingworth- kill= Killa( name of chieftain/leader)

ing= people of

worth/ton= village or settlement

so Killingworth is the village of Killa's people,

Also in the Lakes, the name Thwaite is prevalent, meaning the same- settlement.

I think in the Lakes it comes from Norse, whereas Ashington etc is Saxon

anyone more ITK please correct me

[Monkeys Fist 38571]

Both are dialects, they're not really languages. Sadly the geordie spoken by people in their 70s, 80s and 90s is gradually being eroded, and we're all beginning to talk a more English conformist watered down geordie accent like Jimmy Nail in Spender.

 

There's not just one jock accent. I can differentiate at least 5, they are dialects, but become a different language depending on the amount of buckfast consumed.

fluent Burble-ese.

[Monkeys Fist 38571]

My Grandfather(paternal) was a miner from Washington. My Dad has an audio cassette recorded in the early 70s of him bollocking me and my brother for not eating our tea when I was about 5.

He spoke with the strongest Pitmatic dialect going, full of "Thee, Thew and Thou",my Mam struggled to understand him.

What's curious is that on the tape, both me and my brother clearly understand every word he says, however , listening to it now I can barely understand him.

[JawD 31]

Aye, Scotland is made up of a load of different ones. It was all tribes as you can imagine. but so was what we know as Northumberland now. Think of places like Yavering Bell (sp?) which is a hill near the Cheviots. That was a hill fort used by a local tribe. The North used to be under the Brigantes. By North I mean down to Merseyside taking in york and Humberside. The whole thing was Northumbria later on. Many people think we were largely over ran by vikings in the north east but thats not true. There was an influx but mainly in Yorkshire, though people call that north. You can tell by looking at place names. Angles were the largest influence in the north east. Also when you think of the Roman influence in the north east you have to realise that the Roman soldiers stationed here were not really Italian Romans, but soldiers recruited from other parts of Europe and some even just other parts of England. Some of these soldiers remained to live here when the romans left.

 

Anyway, Angles and the Saxons were different (from a slightly different area) but their language was pretty much the same. the Saxons mainly were in the south and Angles in the North. Ashington was from something to do with Ash Tree's in a Dene.

[Tom 13811]

Apparently I'm a pityakker.

[JawD 31]

Both are dialects, they're not really languages. Sadly the geordie spoken by people in their 70s, 80s and 90s is gradually being eroded, and we're all beginning to talk a more English conformist watered down geordie accent like Jimmy Nail in Spender.

 

There's not just one jock accent. I can differentiate at least 5, they are dialects, but become a different language depending on the amount of buckfast consumed.

 

Aye sadly you're right. A mixture of people migration to our area and people changing how they talk for work etc has watered down our language and its slowly lost. Will be a huge shame imo and I know Ill encourange my kids to know both "languages". I talk different to work/customers than I do when Im at home / with mates etc.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

I was in Berwick last week. Two local old dears were sat near me having a coffee. I could barely make out if they were speaking English or a foreign language for a good while.

[Howmanheyman 26620]

Aye, Scotland is made up of a load of different ones. It was all tribes as you can imagine. but so was what we know as Northumberland now. Think of places like Yavering Bell (sp?) which is a hill near the Cheviots. That was a hill fort used by a local tribe. The North used to be under the Brigantes. By North I mean down to Merseyside taking in york and Humberside. The whole thing was Northumbria later on. Many people think we were largely over ran by vikings in the north east but thats not true. There was an influx but mainly in Yorkshire, though people call that north. You can tell by looking at place names. Angles were the largest influence in the north east. Also when you think of the Roman influence in the north east you have to realise that the Roman soldiers stationed here were not really Italian Romans, but soldiers recruited from other parts of Europe and some even just other parts of England. Some of these soldiers remained to live here when the romans left.

 

Anyway, Angles and the Saxons were different (from a slightly different area) but their language was pretty much the same. the Saxons mainly were in the south and Angles in the North. Ashington was from something to do with Ash Tree's in a Dene.

I'm pretty sure the Roman Garrison in South Shields was largely made up of auxhiliaries from the Euphrates and Tigris part of the world. (So not only are South shields people sand dancers but Iraqi's too.)

[Rob W 0]

The fabulous Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (which is a lot better read than it sounds) lists as a Dialect - although one of the most persistent, characteristic and long lived

 

There are great wodges of Anglo -Saxon & Norse usage still embedded in Geordie and reading something like the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle ("Wulfstan - I Was gutted -gives exclusive interview to Gonnagle ace!" as if it was written in Geordie actually make sit a lot easier to understand

 

.

Over the last 200 years its become more the northern version of English rather than the southern version of Scots.

 

And we're still one of the few places in England that pronounce the "H" at the start of words - like the Queen

[Monkeys Fist 38571]

The fabulous Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (which is a lot better read than it sounds) lists as a Dialect - although one of the most persistent, characteristic and long lived

 

There are great wodges of Anglo -Saxon & Norse usage still embedded in Geordie and reading something like the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle ("Wulfstan - I Was gutted -gives exclusive interview to Gonnagle ace!" as if it was written in Geordie actually make sit a lot easier to understand

 

.

Over the last 200 years its become more the northern version of English rather than the southern version of Scots.

 

And we're still one of the few places in England that pronounce the "H" at the start of words - like the Queen

that reminds me of my old English teacher. He would get us to translate then perform whole sections of Shakespeare into Geordie.

"Rurmeo, where you at ye daft Knacka?

Alreet Juliette! Tits oot pet"

[Rob W 0]

The fabulous Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (which is a lot better read than it sounds) lists as a Dialect - although one of the most persistent, characteristic and long lived

 

There are great wodges of Anglo -Saxon & Norse usage still embedded in Geordie and reading something like the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle ("Wulfstan - I Was gutted -gives exclusive interview to Gonnagle ace!" as if it was written in Geordie actually make sit a lot easier to understand

 

.

Over the last 200 years its become more the northern version of English rather than the southern version of Scots.

 

And we're still one of the few places in England that pronounce the "H" at the start of words - like the Queen

that reminds me of my old English teacher. He would get us to translate then perform whole sections of Shakespeare into Geordie.

"Rurmeo, where you at ye daft Knacka?

Alreet Juliette! Tits oot pet"

 

 

"Doon hyeor lass!"

[Monkeys Fist 38571]

"Wee's Dagger's this like?"

guess the play

[Guest Stevie]

"Wee's Dagger's this like?"

guess the play

Mackem version of Excalibur?

[Monkeys Fist 38571]

Close but no cigar.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

"Wee's Dagger's this like?"

guess the play

Mackembeth?