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LeazesMag
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I just can't see why its a story !

 

So the French are chucking out illegal imigrants, hardly breaking news is it ?

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It's a story because it's related to the riots which are pretty newsworthy at the moment. And it isn't just people who illegal immigrants who are being thrown out, it's any foreign nationals who have been convicted of rioting. Not that I am against the actions.

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FFS Alex, stop making a fuss will you ! :D

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:huff:

 

;)

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Time to start another thread Alex................

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I was just going to pm Jimbo so we could meet up tbh ;)

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Not now please, I'm too busy making a fuss.

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If you're born in France, but you're parents aren't French, then neither are you. Is that the way we should be heading?

 

that is exaclty my situation actually, but i do have french nationality (since ive been 18)

but then again as i'm not algerian, maroccan, then i suppose im lucky not to suffer from discrimination.

 

You can sense tensions in a lot of areas, from what are second generations of immigrants. As a lot of youth are stuck in between two cultures/countries, promoting their differences in France whilst not being welcome in their country of "origin"

 

anyway, im glad Bordeaux seems to be rather quiet.

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Yeah, come on Leazes

 

Who are "us" and "our own"????

 

The last time I heard that it was the BNP - so here is your opportunity to deny that you actually mean  "white, Anglo Saxon"

 

PS  Is Donal Meade one of "us"??  there is a photo of him in todays "indie", black, born in Monserrat, came here when he was 10 when the volcano exploded .........................

 

Joined The Fusiliers in 2002, photo shows him in combat gear wearing the Red & White hackle of the Northumberland Fusiliers

 

Killed 5th September 2005 in Iraq

 

Definitely "one of us" in my book

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Unlike you, Rob, I don't duck questions. One of us, why wouldn't he be if he served his country ?

 

Absurd question, especially coming from someone with zero idea about the security services and their responsibility to the public anyway.

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What exactly is it about the French riots that make them "racist" riots?

 

If people break the law they should be punished. But I don't see why, if two people break the law and do the same thing, we should let one of them off and not punish them as severely because of their skin colour or place of birth - do you?

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We've been down this route before

 

Violence, murder, rioting cannot be condoned and should be punished

 

If there are problems (and there are in France) people should fix them through the system

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they are. They are showing them the door. Quite correct response for not appreciating the new opportunity in life they had

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I don't think the French are wrong in deporting these people. I'm assuming they are foreign nationals living there rather than people who were simply born abroad. They've basically forfeited their right to live in France.

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WTF are you grilling me for then .........

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If you're born in France, but you're parents aren't French, then neither are you. Is that the way we should be heading?

 

that is exaclty my situation actually, but i do have french nationality (since ive been 18)

but then again as i'm not algerian, maroccan, then i suppose im lucky not to suffer from discrimination.

 

You can sense tensions in a lot of areas, from what are second generations of immigrants. As a lot of youth are stuck in between two cultures/countries, promoting their differences in France whilst not being welcome in their country of "origin"

 

anyway, im glad Bordeaux seems to be rather quiet.

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I lived near Bordeaux for a few months and I got the impression that while it's an industrial city it differs from a lot of the other large cities in it's racial breakdown. I'd be interested to get your view on that.

 

I feel there's a very large racial element to these riots and these things work both ways. I think the reason it started takes the piss. I also have a very different opinion of France now than before I lived here, others may think as I did, it may be quite left-wing in some ways but it's very police-state in others.

 

Leazes - I would like a really definitive idea from you as to who 'us' and 'our own' are to you?

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If you're born in France, but you're parents aren't French, then neither are you. Is that the way we should be heading?

 

that is exaclty my situation actually, but i do have french nationality (since ive been 18)

but then again as i'm not algerian, maroccan, then i suppose im lucky not to suffer from discrimination.

 

You can sense tensions in a lot of areas, from what are second generations of immigrants. As a lot of youth are stuck in between two cultures/countries, promoting their differences in France whilst not being welcome in their country of "origin"

 

anyway, im glad Bordeaux seems to be rather quiet.

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I lived near Bordeaux for a few months and I got the impression that while it's an industrial city it differs from a lot of the other large cities in it's racial breakdown. I'd be interested to get your view on that.

 

I feel there's a very large racial element to these riots and these things work both ways. I think the reason it started takes the piss. I also have a very different opinion of France now than before I lived here, others may think as I did, it may be quite left-wing in some ways but it's very police-state in others.

 

Leazes - I would like a really definitive idea from you as to who 'us' and 'our own' are to you?

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FFS what a facetious bunch we have on here today.

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If you're born in France, but you're parents aren't French, then neither are you. Is that the way we should be heading?

 

that is exaclty my situation actually, but i do have french nationality (since ive been 18)

but then again as i'm not algerian, maroccan, then i suppose im lucky not to suffer from discrimination.

 

You can sense tensions in a lot of areas, from what are second generations of immigrants. As a lot of youth are stuck in between two cultures/countries, promoting their differences in France whilst not being welcome in their country of "origin"

 

anyway, im glad Bordeaux seems to be rather quiet.

55394[/snapback]

 

I lived near Bordeaux for a few months and I got the impression that while it's an industrial city it differs from a lot of the other large cities in it's racial breakdown. I'd be interested to get your view on that.

 

I feel there's a very large racial element to these riots and these things work both ways. I think the reason it started takes the piss. I also have a very different opinion of France now than before I lived here, others may think as I did, it may be quite left-wing in some ways but it's very police-state in others.

 

Leazes - I would like a really definitive idea from you as to who 'us' and 'our own' are to you?

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BDX does have its ethnic minorities, stereotypically confined to "cités" like any other large city. But the issues and tension are on a much smaller scale than places like Paris, Marseille or the Lyon area I think. This might be because it still has strong links to its bay area and the basque country.

You can sense that in larger cities France might be losing its identity, or maybe should I say finding itself a new one, it is becoming a massive melting pot of cultures, which i guess will always cause friction. The fact that LePen got through to the second round at the last prez elections, says a lot.

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BDX does have its ethnic minorities, stereotypically confined to "cités" like any other large city. But the issues and tension are on a much smaller scale than places like Paris, Marseille or the Lyon area I think. This might be because it still has strong links to its bay area and the basque country.

You can sense that in larger cities France might be losing its identity, or maybe should I say finding itself a new one, it is becoming a massive melting pot of cultures, which i guess will always cause friction. The fact that LePen got through to the second round at the last prez elections, says a lot.

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I had the same impression, it might explain why the problems in Bordeaux are not so bad at the moment. I'm all for integration but we have to draw the line somewhere and realise when the piss is being taken. I have some very liberal Dutch friends who's opinions of the Morrocan situation in Holland does not sound so liberal. In every country I'm familiar with the young in poor working class areas of all races are creating a serious 'chav' culture. Obviously that's being expressed differently depending on the situation.

 

I hear alot of mixed opinions on the Le Pen issue. Many are embarrased that he got the support he did but I hear also, mainly from the young, that voting Le Pen was never about getting him into power but about protesting to the current leadership.

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FFS what a facetious bunch we have on here today.

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Care to explain?

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I think you know exactly what leazesmag was saying by his "us" and "our own" comments, seems like a few of us on here are waiting for leazes personal interpretation before jumping on him from their own personal moral high-ground.

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mainly from the young, that voting Le Pen was never about getting him into power but about protesting to the current leadership.

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I dont think younger voters actually voted for him as much but I remember it was one of the backlash effects. Most young voters didnt want Chirac in anymore. But there were 16 candidates in the first round in total, and a lot of the "rebellious" voting got spread around leaving LePen with enough to go through.

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FFS what a facetious bunch we have on here today.

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Care to explain?

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I think you know exactly what leazesmag was saying by his "us" and "our own" comments, seems like a few of us on here are waiting for leazes personal interpretation before jumping on him from their own personal moral high-ground.

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I'll admit that I am of the opinion that some of Leazes' opinions of foreigners seem a little dubious to me. He seems like a pretty sensible poster so instead of making assumptions and jumping on him I'd like to really understand what he's on about. That's why I asked for a detailed opinion. How that makes me facetious I'm not sure.

 

For the record I would regard my opinions as centrist but there are a few on here who lump anyone who would consider anything other than burning criminals and raping their wives "bloody pinko commies." I genuinely fail to understand whether people think that certain races have a genetic predisposition to crime and whether they think that deporting all out problems is going to do anything other than create a fucking scary world outside of their imagined utopia.

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FFS what a facetious bunch we have on here today.

55430[/snapback]

 

Care to explain?

55431[/snapback]

 

 

I think you know exactly what leazesmag was saying by his "us" and "our own" comments, seems like a few of us on here are waiting for leazes personal interpretation before jumping on him from their own personal moral high-ground.

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I'll admit that I am of the opinion that some of Leazes' opinions of foreigners seem a little dubious to me. He seems like a pretty sensible poster so instead of making assumptions and jumping on him I'd like to really understand what he's on about. That's why I asked for a detailed opinion. How that makes me facetious I'm not sure.

 

For the record I would regard my opinions as centrist but there are a few on here who lump anyone who would consider anything other than burning criminals and raping their wives "bloody pinko commies." I genuinely fail to understand whether people think that certain races have a genetic predisposition to crime and whether they think that deporting all out problems is going to do anything other than create a fucking scary world outside of their imagined utopia.

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Fair comment !

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FFS what a facetious bunch we have on here today.

55430[/snapback]

 

Care to explain?

55431[/snapback]

 

 

I think you know exactly what leazesmag was saying by his "us" and "our own" comments, seems like a few of us on here are waiting for leazes personal interpretation before jumping on him from their own personal moral high-ground.

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it's fairly obvious isn't it ? I think i've already explained it, "they" have forfeited their opportunity to build a better life, so "they" are rightly being sent home, and "we" should do the same when it happens here. The trouble is, there are still some people deluded enough to believe it won't, and it won't be "our" fault, or rather "mine" .... but "theirs"

 

Personal moral high ground alert on the way .........

 

Actually, after the London bombings, the Home Secretary said "they" would be sent home. And how many have been.. NONE.

 

Invitation for more trouble alert as well .......

Edited by LeazesMag
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FFS what a facetious bunch we have on here today.

55430[/snapback]

 

Care to explain?

55431[/snapback]

 

 

I think you know exactly what leazesmag was saying by his "us" and "our own" comments, seems like a few of us on here are waiting for leazes personal interpretation before jumping on him from their own personal moral high-ground.

55435[/snapback]

 

I'll admit that I am of the opinion that some of Leazes' opinions of foreigners seem a little dubious to me. He seems like a pretty sensible poster so instead of making assumptions and jumping on him I'd like to really understand what he's on about. That's why I asked for a detailed opinion. How that makes me facetious I'm not sure.

 

For the record I would regard my opinions as centrist but there are a few on here who lump anyone who would consider anything other than burning criminals and raping their wives "bloody pinko commies." I genuinely fail to understand whether people think that certain races have a genetic predisposition to crime and whether they think that deporting all out problems is going to do anything other than create a fucking scary world outside of their imagined utopia.

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divvent bother getting over righteous matey, I don't care if you think I'm a sensible poster or not. I think my opinion is right. I'm happy to give it, I appreciate and understand the job the security services do in this country, and no do gooder or fancy dan lecturer or whatever is going to change my mind either.

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it's fairly obvious isn't it ? I think i've already explained it, "they" have forfeited their opportunity to build a better life,  so "they" are rightly being sent home, and "we" should do the same when it happens here. The trouble is, there are still some people deluded enough to believe it won't, and it won't be "our" fault, or rather "mine" .... but "theirs"

 

Personal moral high ground alert on the way .........

 

Actually, after the London bombings, the Home Secretary said "they" would be sent home. And how many have been.. NONE.

 

Invitation for more trouble alert as well .......

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divvent bother getting over righteous matey, I don't care if you think I'm a sensible poster or not. I think my opinion is right. I'm happy to give it, I appreciate and understand the job the security services do in this country, and no do gooder or fancy dan lecturer or whatever is going to change my mind either.

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What the fuck are you on about? Look at that shite, you look sound like a Jackanory presenter!

 

Seriously though, why throw all that shite at someone instead of just talking about it. I know you think you're opinion is right, otherwise it wouldn't be your opinion. You're certainly a lot surer of yours than I am of mine. I'd quite like to skip the insults and just stick to debating the issue, but if you say you know what you think and that's that, fair enough, but then why do you ever bother with these discussions?

 

Maybe I'm thick but no, I don't know who you mean by us or them. I think 'us' are British citizens. But as has been mentioned in this thread a French national must not only be born there but also have French parents. Would the same definition be required for Britishness. I'm registered to vote in your generals but a few of "my kind" have commited terrorist atrocities in Britain. I've talked to enough British people who thought I was British being from the Republic of Ireland. Am I British, am I the enemy to you? I don't know, that's why I asked.

 

I'd also like to know, what kinf of world are we bringing up our kids in once we deport all the shite out and keep all the decent folk?

 

If I get where you coming from maybe we can have a decent chat about it and one or other of us might change our opinion.

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it's fairly obvious isn't it ? I think i've already explained it, "they" have forfeited their opportunity to build a better life,  so "they" are rightly being sent home, and "we" should do the same when it happens here. The trouble is, there are still some people deluded enough to believe it won't, and it won't be "our" fault, or rather "mine" .... but "theirs"

 

Personal moral high ground alert on the way .........

 

Actually, after the London bombings, the Home Secretary said "they" would be sent home. And how many have been.. NONE.

 

Invitation for more trouble alert as well .......

55441[/snapback]

 

divvent bother getting over righteous matey, I don't care if you think I'm a sensible poster or not. I think my opinion is right. I'm happy to give it, I appreciate and understand the job the security services do in this country, and no do gooder or fancy dan lecturer or whatever is going to change my mind either.

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What the fuck are you on about? Look at that shite, you look sound like a Jackanory presenter!

 

Seriously though, why throw all that shite at someone instead of just talking about it. I know you think you're opinion is right, otherwise it wouldn't be your opinion. You're certainly a lot surer of yours than I am of mine. I'd quite like to skip the insults and just stick to debating the issue, but if you say you know what you think and that's that, fair enough, but then why do you ever bother with these discussions?

 

Maybe I'm thick but no, I don't know who you mean by us or them. I think 'us' are British citizens. But as has been mentioned in this thread a French national must not only be born there but also have French parents. Would the same definition be required for Britishness. I'm registered to vote in your generals but a few of "my kind" have commited terrorist atrocities in Britain. I've talked to enough British people who thought I was British being from the Republic of Ireland. Am I British, am I the enemy to you? I don't know, that's why I asked.

 

I'd also like to know, what kinf of world are we bringing up our kids in once we deport all the shite out and keep all the decent folk?

 

If I get where you coming from maybe we can have a decent chat about it and one or other of us might change our opinion.

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I did talk about it, you were the one who started making issues. I had a feeling you would take the bit about "lecturer" etc to heart...but no they weren't aimed at you in particular, it's just that I find these are the types, along with do gooders and bleeding hearts, who tend to not understand what this country would be like if we didn't have the security services, but instead bleat about loss of freedom, and human rights for bombers and other such scum.

 

Why do you think that someone made welcome in a country, should bomb it ?

Why don't you answer that ? I answered your question. And Robs. You may think you are making a political point of saying people who do this should be treated in the same way as people born there and are citizens of that country, [which is why you asked me to define "us"] but I'm not making a political point at all, I would if I wanted to, but I'm only saying I think the French are absolutely right to throw them out, where they end up is now their own problem. Those who think it won't happen here...well take a look, why won't it ?

 

The only problem, is that they may well end up here, thanks to the bleeding heart brigade and their like, as we will put up with this crap when nobody else does.

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I did talk about it, you were the one who started making issues. I had a feeling you would take the bit about "lecturer" etc to heart...but no they weren't aimed at you in particular, it's just that I find these are the types, along with do gooders and bleeding hearts, who tend to not understand what this country would be like if we didn't have the security services, but instead bleat about loss of freedom, and human rights for bombers and other such scum.

No offence taken, I just think terms like "moral high ground, over righteous, do gooder, bleeding hearts, fancy dan lecturer" stand in the way of decent debate. Actually I quite liked that last one, it gave me a laugh. I do think people exist who have an unrealistic view of the situation and would be too soft on crime, I just think they're in a minority and I can't think of anyone on here who fits that bill, certainly not Rob. It just seems that every time that someone suggests an alternative to the system that isn't working you lump them into this category. There are as many on the left who annoy me as on the right, I just hate everyone really.

 

You may think you are making a political point of saying people who do this should be treated in the same way as people born there and are citizens of that country, [which is why you asked me to define "us"]

 

How does that match up with what I've said only a couple of pages ago on this thread (pasted below), and expressed similar opinions many times before? I feel you've again made the assumption that I fit into one mind-set that covers anything left of yourself, if I tried the reverse that would make you Hitler's favourite drinking buddy.

 

Agreed.  If I broke the law to that extent over here I'd expect to be shipped home.  A Spanish friend of mine was shipped home from Ireland for being a silly boy, it's only the US that are obsessed with shipping other people's problems in to exact their revenge.

 

There's a very strong cultural/racial element to this from what I can see over here by the way.  And I don't just think it's one of these coincidental race/class cross-overs.

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Why do you think that someone made welcome in a country, should bomb it ?

 

I don't think anyone should ever bomb anywhere. Are you asking what their motives are, or why a potential threat should be allowed in? I believe that it's impossible to stop the 'wrong people' getting into any country unless you class all muslims, for example, as potential terrorists or completely shut down the borders. The side effects of either would cause bigger problems than we currently have. I think the causes of terrorism are as extreme as the results, I don't think these people just randomly attack and for that reason I think we could try diffferent global policies to help prevent the spread of terrorism. If all's right with the world and there's still a minority who are commiting atrocities for giggles then shoot the fuckers for all I care.

 

The only problem, is that they may well end up here, thanks to the bleeding heart brigade and their like, as we will put up with this crap when nobody else does.

 

I'm not sure the UK is in any danger from leaning too far to the left right now on human rights issues. Do you think the US is safer?

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quick reply, for one reason I have to go out, and another because a shorter post might encourage more to join in rather than just the 2 of us.

 

I see you think you are a "centre viewpoint" person. Well, so do I. In things like law and order, I have certain views that some would call right wing, but on others, like NHS, education, public service, very much the opposite. However I think all of them are for how I perceive to be for the good of the country, which is why I think them ! But obviously others have the same mindset, so we are all the same in the end, we think.

 

Regarding immigration, we just can't allow everyone in the country who wants to come. We just can't, it't totally unrealistic, so you have to have rules. And enforce them. It's no good someone wringing their hands and saying "they are people", of course they are, and in many cases it is sad but what can you do. It's a sad world, but in this country we do our best while putting ourselves first, thats human nature. I can't see the point of people demonstrating at politicians for doing nothing about it, while sitting in their own cozy armchairs. Why don't they give a hand and give up their cozy armchairs if they feel so badly ? Or go into politics if they think they can do better ?

 

Likewise, if we do try to do something about it, like make their mother country a better place, and the world to live in, in the way we see it, they are criticised for being warmongers. And yes, I understand the arguments about Bush and oil. However, what would the reaction be if we invaded Zimbabwe ? There would be people simply unable to see it is impossible to mount an operation like this without innocent casualties, and kick up another fuss. Is this our fault, I mean, how would you do it, and most of us would like to see this tosspot removed from office, and personally I don't care what they do to him if they ever manage to get their hands on him. We could send in the SAS, or go undercover, if it were possible. But you know the same as myself, there are people who would hit the roof that he didn't get a fair trial, ridiculous. For anyone who disagrees, look at the trial of Saddam [trying to wriggle out of it], they should have shot him on the spot, no one would have known, and remember those 3 IRA people shot in Gib ? Good f**king riddance to scum.

Edited by LeazesMag
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I think swinging left on social services and right on law and order makes you more of a communist than centrist. ;)

 

You're right, I think there's far too many people on both sides of this debate who behave like children. The Guardian used to be a great paper but it's now just an anti-Bush / plastic-liberal rag which has lost all credibility, with me anyway. The Daily Mail has been the other side of that coin for a long time. I feel it's important to see where both sides are mistaken. I would say I'm pretty much straight down the middle on all issues.

 

There will be collateral damage when you invade a country but how you decide to break that down is important. Flattening a city remotely and then sending in the boys to tidy up is not ok with me. Soldiers put their lives on the line, it's what they do. We should be aiming to limit civilian casualties, not military casualties, in all conflicts. And the point about oil is not a small one. We, the west, need to take responsibility for what our leaders have done in the distant past, recent past, and are still doing today and understand that people are going to feel a certain way about us, the same way we would when we see an Arab with a backpack. :D

 

Those lads in Gibraltar are a good example. They would consider themselves soldiers on active duty, they were killed in the line of duty. And I wouldn't shed a tear for terrorists but what happens when a bit of over zealous security guns down an innocent? That Brazilian chap in London, for example. The 3 shot dead would have felt they were fighting against ancient oppressors and would probably have witnessed some shocking atrocities against innocent people around them. They didn't just decide they fancied killing a few innocent people. And the tourists watching the changing of the guard? Collateral damage, something their 'army' had to regard as acceptable to do their job.

 

We can't do anything about the fact that England was once a mighty conquerer, we can't do anything about the fact that more than one 'Bloody Sunday' occured but what we can do is treat soldiers who commit atrocities as terrorists and politicians who war for profit or prop up dictators as war criminals. Basically ensure honesty in how these things are carried out. If we could find a way to do that I don't think there'd be many terrorists to protect us against. If we continue to do business the way we're dong it now then yes, I would suggest we need to get very, very right-wing about defence to survive.

 

For the record, in case anyone chooses to misread what I'm saying, I'm not supporting or attempting to justify terrorism, I love/hate various aspects of England and Ireland equally, there's fuck all difference between us to be honest. I seem to be having some difficulty with short posts...

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