Iran has backup nuke facillity

[Park Life 70]

Pakistan already have nuclear weapons. Making it about Islam / the need for a Muslim superpower is just muddying the waters imo

 

This is what irks me most about these islamic states. It's like we're going back to medievel times of the crusades/Moors etc.

 

If we're going to have a fight let's make it over something tangible like oil.

 

I'm looking forward to the soil wars of Waterworld

 

It was a "secular" state that declared their war to be a crusade though....

 

"This is a new kind of, a new kind of evil. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while. And American people must be patient. "

Bush - Sept. 16, 2001

 

 

 

War is peace, fear is knowledge, work is freedom etc...........

[The Fish 8947]

Once we have a muslim superpower, all will be well in the world.

 

You've been radicalised by your mates in the taxi queue I reckon.

 

 

A serious Muslim superpower may make the west and Israel pause for thought rather than rushing in.

 

This is why there is a rush to judgement over Iran. The west doesn't want balance.

 

Who does?

 

certainly not regimes which actively and violently crush nay-sayers within their own country.

[Park Life 70]

Once we have a muslim superpower, all will be well in the world.

 

You've been radicalised by your mates in the taxi queue I reckon.

 

 

A serious Muslim superpower may make the west and Israel pause for thought rather than rushing in.

 

This is why there is a rush to judgement over Iran. The west doesn't want balance.

 

Who does?

 

certainly not regimes which actively and violently crush nay-sayers within their own country.

 

 

You shouldn't talk about England like that.

[The Fish 8947]

Once we have a muslim superpower, all will be well in the world.

 

You've been radicalised by your mates in the taxi queue I reckon.

 

 

A serious Muslim superpower may make the west and Israel pause for thought rather than rushing in.

 

This is why there is a rush to judgement over Iran. The west doesn't want balance.

 

Who does?

 

certainly not regimes which actively and violently crush nay-sayers within their own country.

 

 

You shouldn't talk about England like that.

 

I may have been deliberately alluding to the fact that many so called civilised countries do just that which I said, but you take your time fella. I'm sure your pal will be along soon to derail this chat.

[Fop 1]

fuckin hell

 

Do we still have wankers trying to justify a bunch of extremist fuckers hellbent on destructing Israel, trying to justify them having nukes ?

 

I know there are a few do gooder freaks on here, but words fail me

Maybe if you stopped consistently calling them things like that, they'd actually bother to listen to what you're saying.

 

 

Have you ever been to toontastic before?

Is this where I get to answer a question with another question rather than addressing it directly?

 

Doesn't this exchange illustrate the point rather well though?

[Fop 1]

You may as well believe some nutty pressure group that claims Iran have another 3 enrichment facilities being built, it's all just as much baseless guess work by people with agendas.

 

No it's not.

 

My post has links to the reports and sources which includes the US Defence Intelligence Agency who place Israels nuclear arsenal at 60-80.

 

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

 

Earlier I quoted the US National Intelligence Estimate that said Iran pose no nuclear threat and don't look likely to.

 

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf

 

How does that fit the US agenda?

 

 

Good your sources are now getting better than an eco-pressure group and the Brownies, well done.

 

 

Now..... how many WMDs did "US intelligence" think Saddam had again?

[Fop 1]

200 or 80 nukes in Israel, seriously, who gives a shit?

 

 

Or none.

 

 

Now that Chris has stopped using eco-pressure groups for baseless estimates, he's stepped up a gear and is using the same people that got Saddam's WMD stockpile so bang on right as "sources".

[Happy Face 29]

You may as well believe some nutty pressure group that claims Iran have another 3 enrichment facilities being built, it's all just as much baseless guess work by people with agendas.

 

No it's not.

 

My post has links to the reports and sources which includes the US Defence Intelligence Agency who place Israels nuclear arsenal at 60-80.

 

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

 

Earlier I quoted the US National Intelligence Estimate that said Iran pose no nuclear threat and don't look likely to.

 

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf

 

How does that fit the US agenda?

 

 

Good your sources are now getting better than an eco-pressure group and the Brownies, well done.

 

 

Now..... how many WMDs did "US intelligence" think Saddam had again?

 

Erm, none. They had pictures of some aluminium tubes...but that was about it. The case for war in Iraq was never made. The media hyped it. That's exactly the issue here too.

 

How do those reports fit the US agenda?

Edited October 2, 2009 by Happy Face

[Happy Face 29]

200 or 80 nukes in Israel, seriously, who gives a shit?

 

 

Or none.

 

 

Now that Chris has stopped using eco-pressure groups for baseless estimates, he's stepped up a gear and is using the same people that got Saddam's WMD stockpile so bang on right as "sources".

 

I'd love to see those reports if you have them.

 

Colin Powell got up in the UN took his dick out and said here's your evidence.

 

..and the media ate it up.

[Rob W 0]

The israelis have enough nukes to take out most of the Middle East - using them is pretty much a last option of course

 

tho I have a terrible feeling that if they dropped one on Tehran the Yanks and a load of apologists in this country would carry on as if nothing had happened..............

[Fop 1]

Once we have a muslim superpower, all will be well in the world.

 

 

Aye, because muslim "superpowers" have been so very peaceful in the past.

 

 

If it weren't for warfare the entire religion of Islam would still be 3 people, 2 tents and a goat - there's never been a religion that's been spread more by war.

 

 

 

 

 

 

More to the point under the last muslim superpower "Palestine" was an utter shithole (poor bastards have had nothing but the short end of the stick since pretty much forever), and the utterly "peaceful" Armenian Genocide occurred.

 

The current Islamofascist doctrine to create a new muslim superpower is hardly friendly either (it being the base philosophy of Al-Queda et al), but even then (much like every other religion) there'd still be war and fighting (as there had been historically within Islam).

 

Even now there's more inter-islamic conflict than external conflict - Shiite vs Sunni, Arab vs Persian etc., and the poor old Kurds getting on by everyone.

 

And of course there's Kosovo, which far from becoming a lovely place under muslim rule, in fact has had many times more ethic murders, ethnic violence and ethnic cleansing (of Serbian Kosovans) than ever occurred (to Albanian Kosovans) before the West got involved (of course no one seems to care as the media aren't interested)........ and yes Kosovo stems directly back to the last muslim "superpower" too.

 

 

 

That's not to say Islam is any more inherently bad than any other religion, but it is very political (and was designed to be so), and is currently being used as a worldwide vehicle for political hatemongering/Islamofascism...... as things stand WWIII will be kicked off by "Islam" in some form or another.

[Fop 1]

You may as well believe some nutty pressure group that claims Iran have another 3 enrichment facilities being built, it's all just as much baseless guess work by people with agendas.

 

No it's not.

 

My post has links to the reports and sources which includes the US Defence Intelligence Agency who place Israels nuclear arsenal at 60-80.

 

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

 

Earlier I quoted the US National Intelligence Estimate that said Iran pose no nuclear threat and don't look likely to.

 

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf

 

How does that fit the US agenda?

 

 

Good your sources are now getting better than an eco-pressure group and the Brownies, well done.

 

 

Now..... how many WMDs did "US intelligence" think Saddam had again?

 

Erm, none. They had pictures of some aluminium tubes...but that was about it. The case for war in Iraq was never made. The media hyped it. That's exactly the issue here too.

 

How do those reports fit the US agenda?

 

 

And the evidence for Israel having nukes?

[Fop 1]

200 or 80 nukes in Israel, seriously, who gives a shit?

 

 

Or none.

 

 

Now that Chris has stopped using eco-pressure groups for baseless estimates, he's stepped up a gear and is using the same people that got Saddam's WMD stockpile so bang on right as "sources".

 

I'd love to see those reports if you have them.

 

Colin Powell got up in the UN took his dick out and said here's your evidence.

 

..and the media ate it up.

 

 

And again where is the substantiated evidence for Israel having nukes?

[Happy Face 29]

Your username should be Pyrrhus mate.

 

Ok, replace the word evidence with Intelligence.

[Renton 17603]

[Fop 1]

Your username should be Pyrrhus mate.

 

Ok, replace the word evidence with Intelligence.

 

Or replace it with "baseless speculation".

 

Your own rules we're playing by Chris, not Fop's.

[Guest alex]

Not even deluding himself imo.

[Fop 1]

Not even deluding himself imo.

No I don't think he is, he knows he's sat on his own sword, he just don't like the pain.

[Happy Face 29]

The top ten things you didn't know about Iran

The assumptions most Americans hold about Iran and its policies are wrong

By Juan Cole

 

Oct. 1, 2009 | Thursday is a fateful day for the world, as the U.S., other members of the United Nations Security Council, and Germany meet in Geneva with Iran in a bid to resolve outstanding issues. Although Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had earlier attempted to put the nuclear issue off the bargaining table, this rhetorical flourish was a mere opening gambit and nuclear issues will certainly dominate the talks. As Henry Kissinger pointed out, these talks are just beginning and there are highly unlikely to be any breakthroughs for a very long time. Diplomacy is a marathon, not a sprint.

 

But on this occasion, I thought I'd take the opportunity to list some things that people tend to think they know about Iran, but for which the evidence is shaky.

 

Belief: Iran is aggressive and has threatened to attack Israel, its neighbors or the U.S.

Reality: Iran has not launched an aggressive war in modern history (unlike the U.S. or Israel), and its leaders have a doctrine of "no first strike." This is true of Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, as well as of Revolutionary Guards commanders.

 

 

Belief: Iran is a militarized society bristling with dangerous weapons and a growing threat to world peace.

Reality: Iran's military budget is a little over $6 billion annually. Sweden, Singapore and Greece all have larger military budgets. Moreover, Iran is a country of 70 million, so that its per capita spending on defense is tiny compared to these others, since they are much smaller countries with regard to population. Iran spends less per capita on its military than any other country in the Persian Gulf region with the exception of the United Arab Emirates.

 

 

Belief: Iran has threatened to attack Israel militarily and to "wipe it off the map."

Reality: No Iranian leader in the executive has threatened an aggressive act of war on Israel, since this would contradict the doctrine of 'no first strike' to which the country has adhered. The Iranian president has explicitly said that Iran is not a threat to any country, including Israel.

 

 

Belief: But didn't President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad threaten to "wipe Israel off the map?"

Reality: President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad did quote Ayatollah Khomeini to the effect that "this Occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" (in rezhim-e eshghalgar-i Qods bayad as safheh-e ruzgar mahv shavad). This was not a pledge to roll tanks and invade or to launch missiles, however. It is the expression of a hope that the regime will collapse, just as the Soviet Union did. It is not a threat to kill anyone at all.

 

 

Belief: But aren't Iranians Holocaust deniers?

Reality: Some are, some aren't. Former president Mohammad Khatami has castigated Ahmadinejad for questioning the full extent of the Holocaust, which he called "the crime of Nazism." Many educated Iranians in the regime are perfectly aware of the horrors of the Holocaust. In any case, despite what propagandists imply, neither Holocaust denial (as wicked as that is) nor calling Israel names is the same thing as pledging to attack it militarily.

 

 

Belief: Iran is like North Korea in having an active nuclear weapons program, and is the same sort of threat to the world.

Reality: Iran has a nuclear enrichment site at Natanz near Isfahan where it says it is trying to produce fuel for future civilian nuclear reactors to generate electricity. All Iranian leaders deny that this site is for weapons production, and the International Atomic Energy Agency has repeatedly inspected it and found no weapons program. Iran is not being completely transparent, generating some doubts, but all the evidence the IAEA and the CIA can gather points to there not being a weapons program. The 2007 National Intelligence Estimate by 16 U.S. intelligence agencies, including the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency, assessed with fair confidence that Iran has no nuclear weapons research program. This assessment was based on debriefings of defecting nuclear scientists, as well as on the documents they brought out, in addition to U.S. signals intelligence from Iran. While Germany, Israel and recently the U.K. intelligence is more suspicious of Iranian intentions, all of them were badly wrong about Iraq's alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction and Germany in particular was taken in by Curveball, a drunk Iraqi braggart.

 

 

Belief: The West recently discovered a secret Iranian nuclear weapons plant in a mountain near Qom.

Reality: Iran announced Monday a week ago to the International Atomic Energy Agency that it had begun work on a second, civilian nuclear enrichment facility near Qom. There are no nuclear materials at the site and it has not gone hot, so technically Iran is not in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, though it did break its word to the IAEA that it would immediately inform the UN of any work on a new facility. Iran has pledged to allow the site to be inspected regularly by the IAEA, and if it honors the pledge, as it largely has at the Natanz plant, then Iran cannot produce nuclear weapons at the site, since that would be detected by the inspectors. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton admitted on Sunday that Iran could not produce nuclear weapons at Natanz precisely because it is being inspected. Yet American hawks have repeatedly demanded a strike on Natanz.

 

 

Belief: The world should sanction Iran not only because of its nuclear enrichment research program but also because the current regime stole June's presidential election and brutally repressed the subsequent demonstrations.

Reality: Iran's reform movement is dead set against increased sanctions on Iran, which likely would not affect the regime, and would harm ordinary Iranians.

 

 

Belief: Isn't the Iranian regime irrational and crazed, so that a doctrine of mutally assured destruction just would not work with them?

Reality: Iranian politicians are rational actors. If they were madmen, why haven't they invaded any of their neighbors? Saddam Hussein of Iraq invaded both Iran and Kuwait. Israel invaded its neighbors more than once. In contrast, Iran has not started any wars. Demonizing people by calling them unbalanced is an old propaganda trick. The U.S. elite was once unalterably opposed to China having nuclear science because they believed the Chinese are intrinsically irrational. This kind of talk is a form of racism.

 

 

Belief: The international community would not have put sanctions on Iran, and would not be so worried, if it were not a gathering nuclear threat.

Reality: The centrifuge technology that Iran is using to enrich uranium is open-ended. In the old days, you could tell which countries might want a nuclear bomb by whether they were building light water reactors (unsuitable for bomb-making) or heavy-water reactors (could be used to make a bomb). But with centrifuges, once you can enrich to 5% to fuel a civilian reactor, you could theoretically feed the material back through many times and enrich to 90% for a bomb. However, as long as centrifuge plants are being actively inspected, they cannot be used to make a bomb. The two danger signals would be if Iran threw out the inspectors or if it found a way to create a secret facility. The latter task would be extremely difficult, however, as demonstrated by the CIA's discovery of the Qom facility construction in 2006 from satellite photos. Nuclear installations, especially centrifuge ones, consume a great deal of water, construction materiel, and so forth, so that constructing one in secret is a tall order. In any case, you can't attack and destroy a country because you have an intuition that they might be doing something illegal. You need some kind of proof. Moreover, Israel, Pakistan and India are all much worse citizens of the globe than Iran, since they refused to sign the NPT and then went for broke to get a bomb; and nothing at all has been done to any of them by the UNSC.

 

source

[Fop 1]

source

 

 

Your sources get better and better.

[tooner 243]

source

 

 

Your sources get better and better.

 

 

FFS you are KNOB....why not look into who wrote the article instead of where it was written.......author Juan Cole

 

Cole was awarded Fulbright-Hays fellowships to India (1982) and to Egypt (1985-1986). From 1999 until 2004, Juan Cole was the editor of The International Journal of Middle East Studies. He has served in professional offices for the American Institute of Iranian Studies.[6] He was elected president of the Middle East Studies Association of North America in November 2004.[7] In 2006, he received the James Aronson Award for Social Justice Journalism administered by Hunter College.[8]

 

1975 B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University

1978 M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo

1984 Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles

1984-1990 Assistant Professor of History, University of Michigan

1990-1995 Associate Professor of History, University of Michigan

1992-1995 Director, Center for Middle Eastern and North African Studies, University of Michigan

1995- Professor of History, University of Michigan

 

(from Wiki......hope thats acceptable)

 

hmmmm sounds like a fairly itk guy, what exactly are your qualifications again Fop?

PhD in smiley face usage?.........M.Sc. in third person self reference?

Edited October 2, 2009 by tooner

[The Fish 8947]

hmmmm sounds like a fairly itk guy, what exactly are your qualifications again Fop?

PhD in smiley face usage?.........M.Sc. in third person self reference?

 

oh no, he di-int

 

 

[Fop 1]

source

 

 

Your sources get better and better.

 

 

FFS you are KNOB....why not look into who wrote the article instead of where it was written.......author Juan Cole

 

Cole was awarded Fulbright-Hays fellowships to India (1982) and to Egypt (1985-1986). From 1999 until 2004, Juan Cole was the editor of The International Journal of Middle East Studies. He has served in professional offices for the American Institute of Iranian Studies.[6] He was elected president of the Middle East Studies Association of North America in November 2004.[7] In 2006, he received the James Aronson Award for Social Justice Journalism administered by Hunter College.[8]

 

1975 B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University

1978 M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo

1984 Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles

1984-1990 Assistant Professor of History, University of Michigan

1990-1995 Associate Professor of History, University of Michigan

1992-1995 Director, Center for Middle Eastern and North African Studies, University of Michigan

1995- Professor of History, University of Michigan

 

(from Wiki......hope thats acceptable)

 

hmmmm sounds like a fairly itk guy, what exactly are your qualifications again Fop?

PhD in smiley face usage?.........M.Sc. in third person self reference?

 

 

History, literature and Islamic studies?

 

 

Aye perfectly qualified for talking about nuclear programs and nuclear proliferation.

 

 

But if number of general "qualifications = right" then Fop could post "bombshells" that would (going by the 2 x 60kg dumbbell thread) make Toontastic meltdown.

[Happy Face 29]

source

 

 

Your sources get better and better.

 

 

FFS you are KNOB....why not look into who wrote the article instead of where it was written.......author Juan Cole

 

Cole was awarded Fulbright-Hays fellowships to India (1982) and to Egypt (1985-1986). From 1999 until 2004, Juan Cole was the editor of The International Journal of Middle East Studies. He has served in professional offices for the American Institute of Iranian Studies.[6] He was elected president of the Middle East Studies Association of North America in November 2004.[7] In 2006, he received the James Aronson Award for Social Justice Journalism administered by Hunter College.[8]

 

1975 B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University

1978 M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo

1984 Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles

1984-1990 Assistant Professor of History, University of Michigan

1990-1995 Associate Professor of History, University of Michigan

1992-1995 Director, Center for Middle Eastern and North African Studies, University of Michigan

1995- Professor of History, University of Michigan

 

(from Wiki......hope thats acceptable)

 

hmmmm sounds like a fairly itk guy, what exactly are your qualifications again Fop?

PhD in smiley face usage?.........M.Sc. in third person self reference?

 

 

History, literature and Islamic studies?

 

 

Aye perfectly qualified for talking about nuclear programs and nuclear proliferation.

 

 

That's not what he's talking about.

 

Where do you disagree with him btw?

[Fop 1]

source

 

 

Your sources get better and better.

 

 

FFS you are KNOB....why not look into who wrote the article instead of where it was written.......author Juan Cole

 

Cole was awarded Fulbright-Hays fellowships to India (1982) and to Egypt (1985-1986). From 1999 until 2004, Juan Cole was the editor of The International Journal of Middle East Studies. He has served in professional offices for the American Institute of Iranian Studies.[6] He was elected president of the Middle East Studies Association of North America in November 2004.[7] In 2006, he received the James Aronson Award for Social Justice Journalism administered by Hunter College.[8]

 

1975 B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University

1978 M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo

1984 Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles

1984-1990 Assistant Professor of History, University of Michigan

1990-1995 Associate Professor of History, University of Michigan

1992-1995 Director, Center for Middle Eastern and North African Studies, University of Michigan

1995- Professor of History, University of Michigan

 

(from Wiki......hope thats acceptable)

 

hmmmm sounds like a fairly itk guy, what exactly are your qualifications again Fop?

PhD in smiley face usage?.........M.Sc. in third person self reference?

 

 

History, literature and Islamic studies?

 

 

Aye perfectly qualified for talking about nuclear programs and nuclear proliferation.

 

 

That's not what he's talking about.

 

Where do you disagree with him btw?

 

 

It's not Fop, it's the Brownies, and this time they are serious (after they were stung by their Iraqi WMD report)

 

The 2007 National Intelligence Estimate by 16 U.S. intelligence agencies, including the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency, assessed with fair confidence that Iran has no nuclear weapons research program. This assessment was based on debriefings of defecting nuclear scientists, as well as on the documents they brought out, in addition to U.S. signals intelligence from Iran. While Germany, Israel and recently the U.K. intelligence is more suspicious of Iranian intentions, all of them were badly wrong about Iraq's alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction and Germany in particular was taken in by Curveball, a drunk Iraqi braggart.

 

Is he right or are you right?