Yes we can

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

This is what I cant get my head around.

 

I can see it may be possible to raise the purchase price, but I just cant see how the club (most clubs) can run year in year out at a profit and still able to compete.

 

In a way it would be good to see the business plan in the public, disected by the financial brains of the world so that these things can get some proper consideration and discussion.

 

But even just at Sunderland, when you see the money needed to just be average its frightening.

This is what concerns me. Where does the money come from to keep the club going, to compete in the prem, to buy players?

[trophyshy 6432]

CT lad, this is more like it!

[peasepud 59]

One last suggestion.....

 

Why dont you get a great poster on the website that people can download, print off and stick in their front window, car window, shop, work noticeboard etc.

 

One poster thats big and stands out (for house windows cars etc) and one more detailled poster that could be stuck up in office boards in call centres and the like.

 

I'll even stick one in my Taxi

 

Thats not a bad idea

[Happy Face 29]

This is what I cant get my head around.

 

I can see it may be possible to raise the purchase price, but I just cant see how the club (most clubs) can run year in year out at a profit and still able to compete.

 

In a way it would be good to see the business plan in the public, disected by the financial brains of the world so that these things can get some proper consideration and discussion.

 

But even just at Sunderland, when you see the money needed to just be average its frightening.

This is what concerns me. Where does the money come from to keep the club going, to compete in the prem, to buy players?

 

Doesn't it come from the ongoing monthly pensions contributions?

 

I'm still not clear on how the club pays out your pension like. Does that take precedence over Ameobi's wages?

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

This is what I cant get my head around.

 

I can see it may be possible to raise the purchase price, but I just cant see how the club (most clubs) can run year in year out at a profit and still able to compete.

 

In a way it would be good to see the business plan in the public, disected by the financial brains of the world so that these things can get some proper consideration and discussion.

 

But even just at Sunderland, when you see the money needed to just be average its frightening.

This is what concerns me. Where does the money come from to keep the club going, to compete in the prem, to buy players?

 

Doesn't it come from the ongoing monthly pensions contributions?

 

I'm still not clear on how the club pays out your pension like. Does that take precedence over Ameobi's wages?

And how much is it going to cost to compete at a decent level? This is an era where middling premership strikers cost double digit millions and someone is willing to pay almost £20million for a fullback.

[trophyshy 6432]

You may not get to drill Cheryl Cole, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't hoy away your pension for the off chance of a soapy tit wank from Davina McCall.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Maybe I've been spoilt by the Hall/Shepherd era but the idea of settling for a second-tier, or making-up-the-numbers PL existence doesn't really appeal to me, fan-owned or not.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Dr Kenneth Noisewater

[trophyshy 6432]

Maybe I've been spoilt by the Hall/Shepherd era but the idea of settling for a second-tier, or making-up-the-numbers PL existence doesn't really appeal to me, fan-owned or not.

 

Shit or bust then?

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

My other concern is that if a committee makes every decision you end up with something that no-one is completely happy with or accountable for.

 

One man holding the rudder is better imo. As long as that man isn't a fat, sweaty, clueless cockney twat with a warehouse full of shoddy polyester goods obviously.

[trophyshy 6432]

My other concern is that if a committee makes every decision you end up with something that no-one is completely happy with or accountable for.

 

One man holding the rudder is better imo. As long as that man isn't a fat, sweaty, clueless cockney twat with a warehouse full of shoddy polyester goods obviously.

 

I do agree, however in the absence of one do we just wait and hope indefinitely?

 

Would decisions be made by committee or made by the management team that was put in place? Surely we are not going to have each stakeholders voting on the internet about team selections, this week's promotional offer and what to play at halftime etc?

Edited November 11, 2009 by trophyshy

[Happy Face 29]

I'm trying to find out how the pension stuff will work and thought I'd show my working so far.

 

The NUST website says....

 

you can take advice from an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA) about a product called a SIPP. It releases part of your pension and allows you to invest it in the club.

 

That's very little information If I'm going to commit to an investment of thousands of pounds. I'd like a little more info before seeing a financial advisor.

 

I had thought the trust were going to turn the club into a pensions provider sort of deal which meant we as fans would make a regular payment that would give the club ongoing working capital. But I can't see anything to suggest it's much more than a way the Trust suggest I come up with the money to invest initially. This offers no provision for cash injections required down the line. It's along the same lines as suggesting I take out a loan to invest my initial contributiuon. Am I wrong?

 

Then Wiki says....

 

Investors may make choices about what assets are bought, leased or sold, and decide when those assets are acquired or disposed of, subject to the agreement of the SIPP trustees (usually the SIPP provider).

 

The range of assets permitted by HMRC includes:

 

Stocks and shares listed on a recognised exchange

Futures and options traded on recognised futures exchange

Authorised UK unit trusts and OEICs and other UCITS funds

Unauthorised unit trusts that don't invest in residential property

Investment trusts subject to FSA regulation

Unitised insurance funds from EU insurers and IPAs

Deposits and deposit interests

Commercial property (inc. hotel rooms)

Ground rents

Traded endowments policies

Derivatives products such as a Contract for difference (CFD)

Gold bullion, which is specifically allowed for in legislation

Investments currently permitted by primary legislation but subsequently made subject to heavy tax penalties (and therefore typically not allowed by SIPP providers) include

 

Any item of tangible moveable property (whose market value does not exceed £6,000) - subject to further conditions on use of property

other exotic assets like vintage cars, wine, stamps and art

Residential property

 

I assume that means NUFC becomes an "Investment trust subject to FSA regulation". Is that right?

 

I'm not sure because..

 

An approved investment trust must

 

be resident in the United Kingdom

derive most of its income from investments

distribute at least 85% of its investment income as dividends (unless prohibited by company law)

 

The company must not hold more than 15% of its investments in any single company

 

So only 15% of funds collected by NUST could go to NUFC.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Happy Face

[Happy Face 29]

Another question

 

In addition, we will reveal a model that will ensure a long term stable business plan to be implemented by the elected Board, headed by the President. Initially our investment product is aimed at investors with cash (minimum £1,500) and can include other investment products such as Self Invested Pension Plans at a mimimum transfer of £25,000.

 

Any monies raised will be lodged in a local Solicitor's high interest account and will be returned if the bid is unsuccessful, less a 5% (of the 10% deposit) administration fee.

 

So anyone commiting with the intention of using their pension, needs a £2.5K deposit. Of which we'll lose £125 if it falls through?

 

Or does the 5% of 10% only apply to cash pledges?

[donaldstott 0]

This is what I cant get my head around.

 

I can see it may be possible to raise the purchase price, but I just cant see how the club (most clubs) can run year in year out at a profit and still able to compete.

 

In a way it would be good to see the business plan in the public, disected by the financial brains of the world so that these things can get some proper consideration and discussion.

 

But even just at Sunderland, when you see the money needed to just be average its frightening.

This is what concerns me. Where does the money come from to keep the club going, to compete in the prem, to buy players?

 

Doesn't it come from the ongoing monthly pensions contributions?

 

I'm still not clear on how the club pays out your pension like. Does that take precedence over Ameobi's wages?

And how much is it going to cost to compete at a decent level? This is an era where middling premership strikers cost double digit millions and someone is willing to pay almost £20million for a fullback.

 

 

This is where im psychologically screwed with football at the minute. I guess until Keegan walked I really thought we could return to challenging for the top five or six. Now it just seems as likely as Cheryl Cole flagging me down in the Big Market and asking me to find somewhere quiet to park cos she's gagging for a quickie.

 

Ashleys never going to take us their, the sale fiasco rules out a shining knight and as well as good intentions of NUST I cant see them financing that either.

 

So for the first time in a long long while I have very little hope with regard to football. Even at Sunderland where a money mans arrived, a great chairman and a decent manager (worlds apart from us) what are they realistically going to achieve? A sneak into Europe at best.

 

It just seems a very depressing time at the minute for the 40 plus brigade.

 

I think that it's a question of good housekeeping isn't it.

 

The one thing that the MA regime has got right was trying to follow the Arsenal model.

 

Not living outside the clubs means. Appointing the right people. Not firing managers willy nilly at massive cost to the club. No Michael Owen wages.

 

Looking to maximise revenues, concerts/boxing at SJP, looking to international market.

 

The right manager, playing the right football, with players that care will lead to bigger gates, more beer, more shirts.

[sandman02uk 0]

Another question

 

In addition, we will reveal a model that will ensure a long term stable business plan to be implemented by the elected Board, headed by the President. Initially our investment product is aimed at investors with cash (minimum £1,500) and can include other investment products such as Self Invested Pension Plans at a mimimum transfer of £25,000.

 

Any monies raised will be lodged in a local Solicitor's high interest account and will be returned if the bid is unsuccessful, less a 5% (of the 10% deposit) administration fee.

 

So anyone commiting with the intention of using their pension, needs a £2.5K deposit. Of which we'll lose £125 if it falls through?

 

Or does the 5% of 10% only apply to cash pledges?

 

Gonna stick my neck out here but isn't this WHY you would speak to the financial advisors that NUSC have arranged? rather than asking here?

[peasepud 59]

Another question

 

In addition, we will reveal a model that will ensure a long term stable business plan to be implemented by the elected Board, headed by the President. Initially our investment product is aimed at investors with cash (minimum £1,500) and can include other investment products such as Self Invested Pension Plans at a mimimum transfer of £25,000.

 

Any monies raised will be lodged in a local Solicitor's high interest account and will be returned if the bid is unsuccessful, less a 5% (of the 10% deposit) administration fee.

 

So anyone commiting with the intention of using their pension, needs a £2.5K deposit. Of which we'll lose £125 if it falls through?

 

Or does the 5% of 10% only apply to cash pledges?

 

I havent got the answers on the rest yet but in this case its no, those with a pension dont put down a deposit, I believe we will need to provide proof that the pension exists and is transferrable but thats it.

[Happy Face 29]

When it comes time that I'm a bit short and want to end my investment. Do the Trust just give me my original stake back no questions asked? Or do I have to sell my single sharet to someone else?

 

Once the club is safe, why would anyone buy my £25,000 share off me if they can buy someone else's £1,500 share?

[peasepud 59]

When it comes time that I'm a bit short and want to end my investment. Do the Trust just give me my original stake back no questions asked? Or do I have to sell my single sharet to someone else?

 

Once the club is safe, why would anyone buy my £25,000 share off me if they can buy someone else's £1,500 share?

 

Again, I dont know the definite answer to this as both methods were muted originally.

 

If it was the latter though then people who wanted to go down the Pension route would replace your stake rather than cash buyers.

[Happy Face 29]

Another question

 

In addition, we will reveal a model that will ensure a long term stable business plan to be implemented by the elected Board, headed by the President. Initially our investment product is aimed at investors with cash (minimum £1,500) and can include other investment products such as Self Invested Pension Plans at a mimimum transfer of £25,000.

 

Any monies raised will be lodged in a local Solicitor's high interest account and will be returned if the bid is unsuccessful, less a 5% (of the 10% deposit) administration fee.

 

So anyone commiting with the intention of using their pension, needs a £2.5K deposit. Of which we'll lose £125 if it falls through?

 

Or does the 5% of 10% only apply to cash pledges?

 

I havent got the answers on the rest yet but in this case its no, those with a pension dont put down a deposit, I believe we will need to provide proof that the pension exists and is transferrable but thats it.

 

Cheers PP. That's good.

[Happy Face 29]

When it comes time that I'm a bit short and want to end my investment. Do the Trust just give me my original stake back no questions asked? Or do I have to sell my single sharet to someone else?

 

Once the club is safe, why would anyone buy my £25,000 share off me if they can buy someone else's £1,500 share?

 

Again, I dont know the definite answer to this as both methods were muted originally.

 

If it was the latter though then people who wanted to go down the Pension route would replace your stake rather than cash buyers.

 

Makes sense.

 

My concern would be that once the club is free of Ashley, the incentive is gone for other people to risk £25k of their pension to replace mine when I choose to withdraw it in 30 years time.

 

I'd hate for the withdrawl of my pension to send the club into administration if there's no other takers down the line. The 2% annual return would mean leaving my money in the club for 50 years just to see a return on my investment.

 

Sorry to get all Dragons Den on you. I realise people are doing this out of love for the club rather than to see a return on their investment. But a lot of the information available still seems to be around the initial 10% commitment and the associated liability rather than the long term investment and the safeguards for minimising losses. After all Mike Ashley is losing 70% on his investment if we match his asking price.

[peasepud 59]

I'm trying to find out how the pension stuff will work and thought I'd show my working so far.

 

The NUST website says....

 

you can take advice from an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA) about a product called a SIPP. It releases part of your pension and allows you to invest it in the club.

 

That's very little information If I'm going to commit to an investment of thousands of pounds. I'd like a little more info before seeing a financial advisor.

 

I had thought the trust were going to turn the club into a pensions provider sort of deal which meant we as fans would make a regular payment that would give the club ongoing working capital. But I can't see anything to suggest it's much more than a way the Trust suggest I come up with the money to invest initially. This offers no provision for cash injections required down the line. It's along the same lines as suggesting I take out a loan to invest my initial contributiuon. Am I wrong?

 

Then Wiki says....

 

Investors may make choices about what assets are bought, leased or sold, and decide when those assets are acquired or disposed of, subject to the agreement of the SIPP trustees (usually the SIPP provider).

 

The range of assets permitted by HMRC includes:

 

Stocks and shares listed on a recognised exchange

Futures and options traded on recognised futures exchange

Authorised UK unit trusts and OEICs and other UCITS funds

Unauthorised unit trusts that don't invest in residential property

Investment trusts subject to FSA regulation

Unitised insurance funds from EU insurers and IPAs

Deposits and deposit interests

Commercial property (inc. hotel rooms)

Ground rents

Traded endowments policies

Derivatives products such as a Contract for difference (CFD)

Gold bullion, which is specifically allowed for in legislation

Investments currently permitted by primary legislation but subsequently made subject to heavy tax penalties (and therefore typically not allowed by SIPP providers) include

 

Any item of tangible moveable property (whose market value does not exceed £6,000) - subject to further conditions on use of property

other exotic assets like vintage cars, wine, stamps and art

Residential property

 

I assume that means NUFC becomes an "Investment trust subject to FSA regulation". Is that right?

 

I'm not sure because..

 

An approved investment trust must

 

be resident in the United Kingdom

derive most of its income from investments

distribute at least 85% of its investment income as dividends (unless prohibited by company law)

 

The company must not hold more than 15% of its investments in any single company

 

So only 15% of funds collected by NUST could go to NUFC.

 

Apologies for the wording as its taken from a bigger reply from our financial bod:

 

The club will not be a pension provider, the provider will invest in the club and it's tangible property, ongoing capital will be sourced from natural income, investment income and further contributions from new members.

 

Regarding the permissability of investments. Rest assured NUFC is a permitted investment as long as the operating capital is sufficient to allow the club to operate normally...ie we must raise enough to buy and operate and deal with contingencies. Torquay and Ebbsfleet have similar models, the revenue are ok with it as long as the rules are kept. 100% of what is raised is ok to fund the project.

[peasepud 59]

Just to keep you all informed, we have been already been contacted for talks with Ashley and Llambias. Because its not the time to be doing it and we need to be sure of how likely this is going to be (plus the fact that we want everything to be done above board and open, which they didnt want at this stage) we have declined the offer for now, asking them to hold off for a while.

 

People may think thats a wrong decision however we feel its right, just as we havent issued all the information to everyone yet it would be daft to start negotiating and showing our hand without ensuring those we are looking to buy into this (ie yourselves) are fully happy with the plan.

 

Lets not raise false hopes and dawns without being sure of things.

[Happy Face 29]

Just to keep you all informed, we have been already been contacted for talks with Ashley and Llambias. Because its not the time to be doing it and we need to be sure of how likely this is going to be (plus the fact that we want everything to be done above board and open, which they didnt want at this stage) we have declined the offer for now, asking them to hold off for a while.

 

People may think thats a wrong decision however we feel its right, just as we havent issued all the information to everyone yet it would be daft to start negotiating and showing our hand without ensuring those we are looking to buy into this (ie yourselves) are fully happy with the plan.

 

Lets not raise false hopes and dawns without being sure of things.

 

He might have wanted to buy some shares in the new venture.

[Craig 6287]

Just to keep you all informed, we have been already been contacted for talks with Ashley and Llambias. Because its not the time to be doing it and we need to be sure of how likely this is going to be (plus the fact that we want everything to be done above board and open, which they didnt want at this stage) we have declined the offer for now, asking them to hold off for a while.

 

People may think thats a wrong decision however we feel its right, just as we havent issued all the information to everyone yet it would be daft to start negotiating and showing our hand without ensuring those we are looking to buy into this (ie yourselves) are fully happy with the plan.

 

Lets not raise false hopes and dawns without being sure of things.

 

Looks like the Ronny Gill are on to it

 

Derek Llambias in move to meet fans group

 

TOON managing director Derek Llambias has asked for a meeting with the fans group plotting a takeover.

 

But the Newcastle United Supporters’ Trust (NUST) is set to turn down the request until they have raised the funds for a buyout.

 

The Chronicle has learned Mr Llambias reached out to NUST within an hour of the launch of its Yes We Can campaign on Tuesday.

 

He asked for representatives to meet him before United’s game with Preston North End at St James’ Park on Monday November 23.

 

But the Trust says it is not yet in a position to hold talks.

 

Interim chair Neil Mitchell said: “Any negotiations conducted un behalf of the Yes We Can campaign will be conducted with the full knowledge of our potential investors and the fans in general.

 

“We see no benefit in meeting with Mr Ashley or his representatives until the campaign has fully got under way.

 

“The idea of the campaign is to bring trust and integrity back to the club, reflecting the values of the city as a whole.

 

“It will be conducted in the full glare of publicity I am sure and we want to ensure that our people, including investors and potential investors, know what is going on. Deals in smoke-filled rooms won’t be part of our negotiations.

 

“Our negotiations will be up-front and we will keep the public informed of any developments at all stages of the process.”

 

The Yes We Can campaign was kicked-off earlier this week, with 40,000 emails sent out to supporters across the world.

 

Over the course of six weeks, details of investors being lined up to support the bid will be revealed.

 

A high profile advertising campaign is under way and a special shop unit will be opened for fans to drop-in and find out more.

 

NUST plans to raise enough cash to buy-out Mike Ashley.

 

Money can be pledged directly or through pension funds being unlocked.

 

The plan is to run the club in the style of Barcelona, with a president elected by fans for a set term.

 

The takeover plan has been described as the “Ultimate Protest”, with supporters sick of the turmoil at St James’ Park.

 

Organisers say they have a financial target in mind but are not declaring it.

 

It is also claimed there are a string of business figures who have expressed an interest in investing on the basis fans themselves contribute a certain amount.

 

Their identities are also being protected at this stage but it is understood the list does not include Barry Moat, who had been rumoured to be lining-up a buyout in recent months.

 

After launching the campaign, expressions of interest flooded in from all corners of the globe, including Australia and Ghana.

 

Yes We Can launched amid anger from the Toon Army over Mike Ashley’s decision to re-name St James’ Park, incorporating the name of his own sports company.

 

A series of roadshows are also planned to explain to people what the drive is all about.

 

The next planned event is on November 19 at 7.30pm at the Blacksmith’s Arms, 200 High Street, Gosforth.

 

The minimum donation for fans to have a stake in the club is £1,500.

 

However, if they cannot afford that, donations can be made and will be included in stakes bought by the Trust as a whole.

 

A team of 27 Independent Financial Advisers (IFA) are also working to inform their customers of the potential for taking part in the takeover plan.

 

NUST is adamant the Toon Army can raise the funds to buy-out Mike Ashley

 

Campaign leaders point to 1997, when the club floated on the Stock Market and the fans were invited to buy 10% of the club.

 

That offer was hugely over-subscribed, showing the extent to which supporters want to have a say in United’s affairs.

 

It is hoped that the amount raised by fans will be bolstered by private investors.

 

NUST also wants to remind fans the club would still benefit from its existing income streams, such as television money and gate receipts, which would be maximised if promotion to the top flight was secured.

 

That in turn could attract new investors, who could add funds to the club’s coffers for transfers and other projects.

 

Source: http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/nufc/newcas...72703-25151824/

[sammynb 2929]

When it comes time that I'm a bit short and want to end my investment. Do the Trust just give me my original stake back no questions asked? Or do I have to sell my single sharet to someone else?

 

Once the club is safe, why would anyone buy my £25,000 share off me if they can buy someone else's £1,500 share?

 

Again, I dont know the definite answer to this as both methods were muted originally.

 

If it was the latter though then people who wanted to go down the Pension route would replace your stake rather than cash buyers.

 

Makes sense.

 

My concern would be that once the club is free of Ashley, the incentive is gone for other people to risk £25k of their pension to replace mine when I choose to withdraw it in 30 years time.

 

I'd hate for the withdrawl of my pension to send the club into administration if there's no other takers down the line. The 2% annual return would mean leaving my money in the club for 50 years just to see a return on my investment.

 

Sorry to get all Dragons Den on you. I realise people are doing this out of love for the club rather than to see a return on their investment. But a lot of the information available still seems to be around the initial 10% commitment and the associated liability rather than the long term investment and the safeguards for minimising losses. After all Mike Ashley is losing 70% on his investment if we match his asking price.

 

Is he? I thought you had completed the sums that shows otherwise with his players sales and lack of reinvesting.

Do we need to start a compendium for you HF?

[Happy Face 29]

Sorry to get all Dragons Den on you. I realise people are doing this out of love for the club rather than to see a return on their investment. But a lot of the information available still seems to be around the initial 10% commitment and the associated liability rather than the long term investment and the safeguards for minimising losses. After all Mike Ashley is losing 70% on his investment if we match his asking price.

 

Is he? I thought you had completed the sums that shows otherwise with his players sales and lack of reinvesting.

Do we need to start a compendium for you HF?

 

Not sure I have like.

 

Think I've said I can't see how he'll lose money this season.

 

None of us know the total he's put in/taken out to date. But he clearly spent more than he earned in his first 2 seasons at the club.

 

EDIT: And his asking price is only 60% of what he paid for it.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Happy Face