Shaun 0 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 They're not agnostic, because they have no concept of god, so how can they be undecided on the veracity of either side of the debate? They're atheist because they are "a-" (without) "theist" (the belief that at least one deity exist). Simple as that. They are without knowledge of a lot of things. That certainly doesn't mean those things do not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun 0 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 As we are born. How are you born believing there are no gods? You are born ignostic (the concept of God is considered meaningless) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Agnosticism is an active refusal that we have the knowledge to say either way. Its beyond a child. Atheism is to not even consider a choice is there to be made. The only ways newborn can be described. I am as simple as the newborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17746 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 There's both negative (implicit) and positive (explicit) atheists: children would fit in the former category, but both groups certainly exist. Personally, I tend not to believe in things there's no evidence for, what does that make me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 They are without knowledge of a lot of things. That certainly doesn't mean those things do not exist. Neither does it mean that they do. They don't know about the tooth fairy, they may (at some point) be told that it does exist, but that doesn't make it so. I don't think you're getting my point. Atheism doesn't mean they say a god doesn't exist. Atheism means they are without the belief that a god does exist. It's an important distinction. An atheist may also say that a god doesn't exist, but that's not what atheism means. Joe blips into existence a fully formed, fully cognitive man, however he is without any notion of a god. He is without the belief a god exists,; he is a-theist. Jill appears and describes God, but asks Joe to make up his own mind. He is isn't sure and as such he can be called agnostic: 1. In a moment of clarity/madness he comes to the conclusion that a god does exist; he is theist. 2. In a moment of clairty/madness he comes to the conclusion that a god does not exist; he is once more without the belief in a god, he is a-theist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun 0 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I'm not misspelling agnostic btw. Ignostic is a real thing, even though my spellchecker says otherwise. I assume is means ignorance to the concept of gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17746 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Neither does it mean that they do. They don't know about the tooth fairy, they may (at some point) be told that it does exist, but that doesn't make it so. I don't think you're getting my point. Atheism doesn't mean they say a god doesn't exist. Atheism means they are without the belief that a god does exist. It's an important distinction. An atheist may also say that a god doesn't exist, but that's not what atheism means. Joe blips into existence a fully formed, fully cognitive man, however he is without any notion of a god. He is without the belief a god exists,; he is a-theist. Jill appears and describes God, but asks Joe to make up his own mind. He is isn't sure and as such he can be called agnostic: 1. In a moment of clarity/madness he comes to the conclusion that a god does exist; he is theist. 2. In a moment of clairty/madness he comes to the conclusion that a god does not exist; he is once more without the belief in a god, he is a-theist. Initally Joe is a negative atheist, at point 2 he is a positive atheist. I'd say I'm at point 2 because there is stacks of indirect evidence to suggest Abrahamic deities and the like don't exist and no evidence whatsoever to suggest they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun 0 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Neither does it mean that they do. They don't know about the tooth fairy, they may (at some point) be told that it does exist, but that doesn't make it so. I don't think you're getting my point. Atheism doesn't mean they say a god doesn't exist. Atheism means they are without the belief that a god does exist. It's an important distinction. An atheist may also say that a god doesn't exist, but that's not what atheism means. Joe blips into existence a fully formed, fully cognitive man, however he is without any notion of a god. He is without the belief a god exists,; he is a-theist. Jill appears and describes God, but asks Joe to make up his own mind. He is isn't sure and as such he can be called agnostic: 1. In a moment of clarity/madness he comes to the conclusion that a god does exist; he is theist. 2. In a moment of clairty/madness he comes to the conclusion that a god does not exist; he is once more without the belief in a god, he is a-theist. That is my point; your definition of atheism is wrong. Atheism is not a mere without/lack belief in gods, It is the specific belief that there is no gods.(( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14031 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 How are you born believing there are no gods? You are born ignostic (the concept of God is considered meaningless) You said it yourself. "Atheist = without gods". That's how we're born. If you want to move your own goalposts, by all means do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13836 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Hey Guys I feel like BANANADANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I'm not misspelling agnostic btw. Ignostic is a real thing, even though my spellchecker says otherwise. I assume is means ignorance to the concept of gods. Wiki describes ignosticism like this; It can be defined as encompassing two related views about the existence of God: The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition is unfalsifiable, the ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless. In this case, the concept of God is not considered meaningless; the term "God" is considered meaningless. The second view is synonymous with theological noncognitivism, and skips the step of first asking "What is meant by 'God'?" before proclaiming the original question "Does God exist?" as meaningless. Which certainly can't be a position held by a new born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17746 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 That is my point; your definition of atheism is wrong. Atheism is not a mere without/lack belief in gods, It is the specific belief that there is no gods.(( No, you're wrong. Why are you so bothered by semantics anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 That is my point; your definition of atheism is wrong. Atheism is not a mere without/lack belief in gods, It is the specific belief that there is no gods.(( No, you're lumping all branches of atheism under the Positive Atheism umbrella. Atheism literally means without belief in god. It doesn't mean the belief there is no god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 That is my point; your definition of atheism is wrong. Atheism is not a mere without/lack belief in gods, It is the specific belief that there is no gods.(( No it's not. It is the absence of belief. That's the point of it. Even the staunchest catholic is 99% as atheistic as me. They don't believe in hundreds of the gods I don't. Just that one extra one they have trouble worrying about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophyshy 6434 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 There's either no God or he's the biggest cath that ever existed. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayatollah Hermione 12767 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 God was the original superhero. RT if you love Marvel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 God was the original superhero. RT if you love Marvel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun 0 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 No, you're lumping all branches of atheism under the Positive Atheism umbrella. Atheism literally means without belief in god. It doesn't mean the belief there is no god. It's doesn't mean that though, pull out a dictionary and look for yourself. You know about the concept of gods, right? So how can you lack belief? You either believe in gods, don't believe in gods or you find the concept incomprehensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 It's doesn't mean that though, pull out a dictionary and look for yourself. You know about the concept of gods, right? So how can you lack belief? You either believe in gods, don't believe in gods or you find the concept incomprehensible. It absolutely does mean that. The debate isn't as simplified as you've made it. For example, you can be atheist because you have no concept of gods. You can be atheist because you've been presented with the arguments and do not have the belief in gods. You can be theist because you believe there are gods or you can be theist because you believe in 1 particular god. To get back to the beginning though, you stated that no atheists exists, we've demonstrated that this is incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun 0 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 It absolutely does mean that. The debate isn't as simplified as you've made it. For example, you can be atheist because you have no concept of gods. You can be atheist because you've been presented with the arguments and do not have the belief in gods. You can be theist because you believe there are gods or you can be theist because you believe in 1 particular god. To get back to the beginning though, you stated that no atheists exists, we've demonstrated that this is incorrect. You've demonstrated clear misunderstanding of the word atheist. What you continually keep describing is an agnostic viewpoint. Which pertains to my original statement: 'atheists do not exist' [OF: why can't I used the return key. have I messed something up here ?] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) You've demonstrated clear misunderstanding of the word atheist. What you continually keep describing is an agnostic viewpoint. Which pertains to my original statement: 'atheists do not exist' [OF: why can't I used the return key. have I messed something up here ?] No, I fully understand what a-theist means, I've explained it in a variety of ways and yet you still insist it means believing in no gods, when it absolutely does not mean that. It's lieral meaning is to be without belief. Which is not the same as believing in the opposite. Being a-political means being without a political bent. Being a-tonal is being without tone. Being a-sexual is to be without sexual orientation. and it follows that a-theist means being without theism, or without the belief in a god or gods. This MUST NOT be confused with having the belief there is no god. I cannot make it more simple than that. Edited April 4, 2013 by The Fish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17746 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 If atheists don't exist, why is it an option on the census. Ridiculous argument, and misses the fundamental point that atheism is NOT a belief system like religion. It is simply a lack of belief. Why can't religious people grasp this simple concept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3977 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 It's the typical trick of the theist to try and argue about the the word "believe" in order to equate atheism with religion. I think Renton has it right with his use of positive/negative atheists fwiw. I have no problem saying I believe there are no gods in the same way I believe any number of things including the laws of science. I always feel using the "lack of belief" defiinition while true doesn't cover it entirely as you have to match the "positivity" of religionists to indicate where you are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun 0 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I'm not religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 pull out a dictionary and look for yourself. OK... Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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