Islamophobia in the US

[LeazesMag 0]

I do not recall hearing of cases of Catholicophobia, Hinduophobia, Zoroasterophobia, Bhuddismophobia. Let's be honest and call it what it is.

 

Here you go....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religious_persecution

 

Do you feel the same about anti-semitiism too?

 

[Park Life 70]

Thanks for your comments, people. Kriste, you are kind. Yes, I've read The Looming Tower. I've grown up in areas where mosques spring up and I know the chaos it can cause on Fridays especially during Ramadan to traffic and other logistical aspects of life in an area. Just trying to figure if there was any upside at all to this abomination, (other than the obvious of giving a funnel for every dirtbag jihadist in NYC to flow through. Hope we have an FBI office parked across the street with cameras taking pictures of everyone that walks into that Godforsaken building. If we're smart, we'll bug the damn thing while its being built. Make it one large microphone (tell me we learned SOMETHING from the USSR embassy fiasco).

 

My mind just can't wrap around the fact that NYC handed the jihadists such a victory. What next? A mosque on Columbia Pike across from the Pentagon?

 

Are they stupid or evil in NYC? I can't figure it out. Once it's there, there is no getting rid of it. That's one "evil infant" that needed to be strangled in its crib.

August 07, 2010 at 10:26 AM "

 

Americans speak out!!

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

I do not recall hearing of cases of Catholicophobia, Hinduophobia, Zoroasterophobia, Bhuddismophobia. Let's be honest and call it what it is.

 

Here you go....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religious_persecution

 

Do you feel the same about anti-semitiism too?

 

First of all, no 'phobia' appears on that wiki link you posted. It is a list of links to pages which document examples of religious persecution. I can post wiki links too, but I will post one which is relevant to the discussion.

 

"A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος,phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is an irrational, intense and persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, animals, or people. The main symptom of this disorder is the excessive and unreasonable desire to avoid the feared stimulus."

 

Now would you say if I wanted to avoid Shariah law or a Caliphate being instated this is an irrational position?

 

There is a difference between criticising a religion and actively seeking to persecute its members. It seems you have failed to recognise this distinction. A cartoon depiction of Muhammad will be called 'Islamophobic'. A cartoon depicting Jesus will not be deemed Catholicophobic. Soviet Russia executing Catholics is regarded as anti-catholicism. It was not a phobia that drove this persecution.

 

 

Anti-semetism is a different term altogether to the religious ones, it was originally coined to stop people hating Jews for religious reasons and to start them hating Jews for ethnic/racial reasons instead. Is it cited too frequently? Yes. Look at Joey Barton's celebration against Villa, there are people who would deem it anti-semetic. Some now deem criticism of Zionism anti-semetic. What do you say about that? I'm sure you would never criticise Israel would you?

Edited August 24, 2010 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[LeazesMag 0]

I do not recall hearing of cases of Catholicophobia, Hinduophobia, Zoroasterophobia, Bhuddismophobia. Let's be honest and call it what it is.

 

Here you go....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religious_persecution

 

Do you feel the same about anti-semitiism too?

 

First of all, no 'phobia' appears on that wiki link you posted. It is a list of links to pages which document examples of religious persecution. I can post wiki links too, but I will post one which is relevant to the discussion.

 

"A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος,phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is an irrational, intense and persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, animals, or people. The main symptom of this disorder is the excessive and unreasonable desire to avoid the feared stimulus."

 

Now would you say if I have a fear of Shariah law or a Caliphate being instated this is an irrational fear?

 

There is a difference between criticising a religion and actively seeking to persecute its members. It seems you have failed to recognise this distinction. A cartoon depiction of Muhammad will be called 'Islamophobic'. A cartoon depicting Jesus will not be deemed Catholicophobic. Soviet Russia executing Catholics is regarded as anti-catholicism. It was not a phobia that drove this persecution.

 

 

Anti-semetism is a different term altogether to the religious ones, it was originally coined to stop people hating Jews for religious reasons and to start hating them for ethnic/racial reasons instead. Is it cited too frequently? Yes. Look at Joey Barton's celebration against Villa, there are people who would deem it anti-semetic. Some now deem criticism of Zionism anti-semetic. What do you say about that? I'm sure you would never criticise Israel would you?

 

the notion I'm afraid of Islamists is funny. I mean, I might be afraid if I'm on an aeroplane one day and someone says they have a bomb and are about to blow me up, but otherwise, rather than have fuckers tell me what I can and can't say why not give me the gun and I'll tell them what I can and can't say and then we'll see who is afraid of who.

[acrossthepond 699]

@ Across the Pond

 

I support the potential building of the New York faith centre you horrific simpleton. I have a little tip for you. Read my sentences when you go through this thread. Find a sentence somewhere where I refer to a 'ground zero mosque' which I am outraged about and feel should not be built. I have not written a sentence stating anything of this nature.

 

This thread was about the protest and about the black man being moved along after stopping and swearing a bit at the protesters. I have no problem with any demonstrations, I believe in freedom of speech and expression and so on. I have mainly addressed points dealing with this. I am dubious of people who become incensed at protests which are perhaps bigoted in nature, especially regarding Islam. This is because freedom of expression has been denied when it takes the form of a criticism or satire of Islam, and I find that unacceptable. It is acceptable to show a cartoon of Jesus of Nazareth shitting all over George Bush on American television, but a drawing of Muhammed is not allowed (See South Park). As I have written several times now this is partly due to euphemisms such as Islamophobia. I do not recall hearing of cases of Catholicophobia, Hinduophobia, Zoroasterophobia, Bhuddismophobia. Let's be honest and call it what it is.

 

As for your repeated and unwarranted ad hominem attacks on me, frankly there is no need for you to blow up like this. It shows a lack of tact on your part and a failure to deal with or even understand my points, as you have clearly misrepresented what I have written. I will be charitable and assume English is not your first language.

 

I had been browsing the forum for several weeks and decided to join. I didn't realise this would represent a problem. This sort of topic interests me, I did intend to give Kevin some advice after his terrific A level results (reached his full potential imo), but I got dragged into this one.

 

Bring out your real account or fuck off tbh. As it is you're just a shit WUM.

 

You ever going to post in the NUFC section by the way? Or is that for your real account only?

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

@ across the pond.

 

You accused me of having straw man arguments yet you have wholly failed to address my points and have resorted again to goading me. I presume this forum has an ignore feature and I will use it as you seem to have no intent of discussion.

[sniffer 0]

It shows how far out of touch muslims are to even have the idea of building a mosque near the sites of ground zero. And even further if they are surprised at the reaction.

 

Why not go the whole hog and put a memorial to the US 7th Cavalry at Wounded Knee as well. Nowt wrong with that is there? No reason for anybody to get their knickers in a twist.

[LeazesMag 0]

It shows how far out of touch muslims are to even have the idea of building a mosque near the sites of ground zero. And even further if they are surprised at the reaction.

 

Why not go the whole hog and put a memorial to the US 7th Cavalry at Wounded Knee as well. Nowt wrong with that is there? No reason for anybody to get their knickers in a twist.

 

quite fucking amazing. It also shows how they think they will get away with any amount of provocation they like, with the assistance of the bleeding hearts who defend them in the way they do. They are probably laughing their heads off at the gullibility of it all.

[acrossthepond 699]

@ across the pond.

 

You accused me of having straw man arguments yet you have wholly failed to address my points and have resorted again to goading me. I presume this forum has an ignore feature and I will use it as you seem to have no intent of discussion.

 

You should presume this forum has a "quote" feature too. It's a lot easier to use than the ignore feature.

 

Your arguments are nothing but straw men. You say "horrific simpleton, show me where I argued against this ground zero mosque." Except I never said that you did. So your accusation against me is itself a straw man. Surprise!

 

As far as I can tell from your drivel, you are attempting to defend the US right (saying specifically that they have not attempted to make political hay from these protests) and the rights of these protesters. Nobody in this thread has impugned the rights of people to protest against something they find unacceptable, so that point is irrelevant. You also repeatedly claim that the protests are actually rather small in nature. Is that why they're receiving such widespread media coverage? OK, if they don't really represent the will of the people of the United States, then why do right-wing politicians and talking heads keep referring to them? Maybe it's so that they can - oh yes - use the appearance of "widespread protest" to further their political agendas, which is what you have been arguing they are not doing.

 

That is the islamophobia I have been talking about - the fact that the US right (which you apparently signed up to this board in order to defend) is using the irrational and ungrounded fear of ignorant people in order to gain political power. That's what you must be either too stupid or too willfully dense to see. So, again, which is it?

 

You've already been utterly shown up for your "zoroastrianophobia" nonsense by the existence of the notion of anti-semitism, so let's just hoy that out the window. Same with your babble about the Prophet cartoons. What relevance do these two things have to one another? One was a set of cartoons that satirised Islam and wrongly provoked a violent response. Another is an example of people trying to use racism to block peaceful and community-minded Muslims from promoting inter-faith relations.

 

You even concede that these protests "may be bigoted in nature" but then say you are "dubious of people who become incensed at" them. You're dubious of people who are bothered by bigotry? What does that say about you?

 

Now seriously, fuck off. Take your main account as well.

[acrossthepond 699]

It shows how far out of touch muslims are to even have the idea of building a mosque near the sites of ground zero. And even further if they are surprised at the reaction.

 

Why not go the whole hog and put a memorial to the US 7th Cavalry at Wounded Knee as well. Nowt wrong with that is there? No reason for anybody to get their knickers in a twist.

 

In this thread: sniffer, once again, has no fucking idea what he's talking about.

 

It isn't a mosque and it isn't even near Ground Zero. Anything else you can be wrong about? Oh yes, the same ignorant assumption that these American protesters make: that Islam equates to terrorism.

 

Let me guess - you're the silleekunt?

[Park Life 70]

I do not recall hearing of cases of Catholicophobia, Hinduophobia, Zoroasterophobia, Bhuddismophobia. Let's be honest and call it what it is.

 

Here you go....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religious_persecution

 

Do you feel the same about anti-semitiism too?

 

First of all, no 'phobia' appears on that wiki link you posted. It is a list of links to pages which document examples of religious persecution. I can post wiki links too, but I will post one which is relevant to the discussion.

 

"A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος,phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is an irrational, intense and persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, animals, or people. The main symptom of this disorder is the excessive and unreasonable desire to avoid the feared stimulus."

 

Now would you say if I wanted to avoid Shariah law or a Caliphate being instated this is an irrational position?

 

There is a difference between criticising a religion and actively seeking to persecute its members. It seems you have failed to recognise this distinction. A cartoon depiction of Muhammad will be called 'Islamophobic'. A cartoon depicting Jesus will not be deemed Catholicophobic. Soviet Russia executing Catholics is regarded as anti-catholicism. It was not a phobia that drove this persecution.

 

 

Anti-semetism is a different term altogether to the religious ones, it was originally coined to stop people hating Jews for religious reasons and to start them hating Jews for ethnic/racial reasons instead. Is it cited too frequently? Yes. Look at Joey Barton's celebration against Villa, there are people who would deem it anti-semetic. Some now deem criticism of Zionism anti-semetic. What do you say about that? I'm sure you would never criticise Israel would you?

 

Yeah but Jesus is a fiction.

[sniffer 0]

Peaceful and community minded muslims? If they were they wouldn't be pushing to do this.

 

I have to assume that you must be a muslim and you are taking the piss.

[Park Life 70]

Peaceful and community minded muslims? If they were they wouldn't be pushing to do this.

 

I have to assume that you must be a muslim and you are taking the piss.

 

You're doing it all wrong sniffs. You should have let LM play the 'are you a muslim card' and then struck from the shadows.

[sniffer 0]

There's always more than one way to go, parks.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

As far as I can tell from your drivel, you are attempting to defend the US right (saying specifically that they have not attempted to make political hay from these protests) and the rights of these protesters. Nobody in this thread has impugned the rights of people to protest against something they find unacceptable, so that point is irrelevant. You also repeatedly claim that the protests are actually rather small in nature. Is that why they're receiving such widespread media coverage? OK, if they don't really represent the will of the people of the United States, then why do right-wing politicians and talking heads keep referring to them? Maybe it's so that they can - oh yes - use the appearance of "widespread protest" to further their political agendas, which is what you have been arguing they are not doing.

 

You even concede that these protests "may be bigoted in nature" but then say you are "dubious of people who become incensed at" them. You're dubious of people who are bothered by bigotry? What does that say about you?

 

Now seriously, fuck off. Take your main account as well.

 

I cited examples of the US right who have attempted to make political gains from people who hate muslims, namely Newt Gingrich. I CAN TYPE IN CAPS IF IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR YOU TO READ WITH YOUR PEA SIZED BRAIN. I also said I believed they would fail in making significant political gain from this behaviour. We saw an example of this with Palin in the election campaign. She inferred that Obama 'palled about with terrorists' and was a Muslim and so on. As far as I can see, the American electorate decided she was rediculous. She has a small but dedicated following, she will not become the U.S. president.

 

The protests are small in nature. When the BNP muck about in England it is one of the major news stories. Do you think the BNP represent the will of the English? No, it is just a news item that will generate a lot of interest and viewers, hence the coverage and that applies to this situation also.

 

I am dubious of people who are incensed (to the point where it is not clear whether they fully support the right of people to express these things) by people expressing a view they disagree with, even if it is a bigoted one. Given that freedom of expression has been challenged - but thankfully prevailed - in recent history , I think it is important to ask where these people stand on the issue, that's the extent of my suspicions.

 

Now, is it ok on this forum to tell people to fuck off? I could care less. If you're going to continue responding to me though, I would appreciate it if you read my sentences fully; you clearly struggle to understand them so it would probably be better if you conversed with a thick bastard instead.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[sniffer 0]

It shows how far out of touch muslims are to even have the idea of building a mosque near the sites of ground zero. And even further if they are surprised at the reaction.

 

Why not go the whole hog and put a memorial to the US 7th Cavalry at Wounded Knee as well. Nowt wrong with that is there? No reason for anybody to get their knickers in a twist.

 

In this thread: sniffer, once again, has no fucking idea what he's talking about.

 

It isn't a mosque and it isn't even near Ground Zero. Anything else you can be wrong about? Oh yes, the same ignorant assumption that these American protesters make: that Islam equates to terrorism.

 

Let me guess - you're the silleekunt?

 

Less than 200 hundred yards means near in my book, mohammed.

[acrossthepond 699]

Peaceful and community minded muslims? If they were they wouldn't be pushing to do this.

 

I have to assume that you must be a muslim and you are taking the piss.

 

We will just have to disagree. I don't doubt their intentions for a moment - but as I have already said in this thread, the idea is a terrible one and should never have been proposed. But that said, it shouldn't matter.

 

I'm certainly not taking the piss. Just to remind people who (cough) didn't read the thread, here are my thoughts:

 

1. It is wrong to say that somehow the presence of Ground Zero should preclude nearby mosque-building. Ground Zero is a terrorist site. The fact that it was attacked by people who claim to be Muslims should not cause the rest of us to be tarred with the same brush. As has been brought up already, the Pentagon was also a target of the 9/11 attacks and there is a mosque there. Where's the disconnect?

2. The response of ignorant Americans to the proposed community centre was extremely predictable, as was the conservative political machine's response to said response, and therefore the Cordoba Group should have had better advisers who would have told them that - even though it shouldn't - building their islamic community centre at the chosen location would inflame relations rather than improve them.

3. It should never have been proposed, but I defend wholeheartedly the right of Muslims or people of any faith to build their houses of God wheresoever they choose, and I completely reject the notion that it is somehow "insensitive" or "wrong" for a mosque to be built close to Ground Zero.

[LeazesMag 0]

Peaceful and community minded muslims? If they were they wouldn't be pushing to do this.

 

I have to assume that you must be a muslim and you are taking the piss.

 

You're doing it all wrong sniffs. You should have let LM play the 'are you a muslim card' and then struck from the shadows.

 

nah, I just advocate shooting first and asking questions later Bruv

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

I too am doubtful of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth but he is clearly a much beloved figure.

[Park Life 70]

Apparently Isreael is proposing a synagogue on the site of that UN school they vapourised last year in Lebanon.

[acrossthepond 699]

Now, is it ok on this forum to tell people to fuck off? I could care less. If you're going to continue responding to me though, I would appreciate it if you read my sentences fully; you clearly struggle to understand them so it would probably be better if you conversed with a thick bastard instead.

 

You figured out the quote function! Congratulations!

 

I think you are playing the part more than adequately.

 

Seriously though, I don't even have any idea what you are trying to say now and I don't think you do either. Are you trying to say that these protesters are racist - like the BNP - but like the BNP, should be given the right to say what they want to say? You're right. And what they have to say is racist - in this case, you might call it islamophobic? And there are people who are going to take advantage of that.

 

Or is it that you're concerned that people on here are trying to say that these racist protesters should not have the right to repeat whatever drivel they want to, and that's because of the influence of "bleeding heart liberals" who throw around the word "Islamophobia" to curtail any legitimate discussion of Islam's failings? Hell, they can protest whatever they want - as long as they do it from outside the walls of the mosques that we have the right to build wherever we so please.

[sniffer 0]

People like you are the problem. You are certainly not part of any solution.

[Park Life 70]

I too am doubtful of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth but he is clearly a much beloved figure.

 

Only cause Constantine had all the myths re-written.

[Happy Face 29]

I do not recall hearing of cases of Catholicophobia, Hinduophobia, Zoroasterophobia, Bhuddismophobia. Let's be honest and call it what it is.

 

Here you go....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religious_persecution

 

Do you feel the same about anti-semitiism too?

 

First of all, no 'phobia' appears on that wiki link you posted. It is a list of links to pages which document examples of religious persecution. I can post wiki links too, but I will post one which is relevant to the discussion.

 

"A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος,phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is an irrational, intense and persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, animals, or people. The main symptom of this disorder is the excessive and unreasonable desire to avoid the feared stimulus."

 

 

So your biggest problem with this whole matter is semantics?

 

Now would you say if I wanted to avoid Shariah law or a Caliphate being instated this is an irrational position?

 

No

 

There is a difference between criticising a religion and actively seeking to persecute its members. It seems you have failed to recognise this distinction. A cartoon depiction of Muhammad will be called 'Islamophobic'.

 

Will it? Where? I'd have thought it would be the opposite of "islamophobic", seeing how it taunts those who threaten our freedom of exprssion rather than whipping up fear and hysteria. If anyone has failed to recognise a distinction here it's you.

 

A cartoon depicting Jesus will not be deemed Catholicophobic. Soviet Russia executing Catholics is regarded as anti-catholicism. It was not a phobia that drove this persecution.

 

See above. It's you conflating terms here.

 

Let's be honest and call it what it is.

 

Which is?

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Now, is it ok on this forum to tell people to fuck off? I could care less. If you're going to continue responding to me though, I would appreciate it if you read my sentences fully; you clearly struggle to understand them so it would probably be better if you conversed with a thick bastard instead.

 

You figured out the quote function! Congratulations!

 

I think you are playing the part more than adequately.

 

Seriously though, I don't even have any idea what you are trying to say now and I don't think you do either. Are you trying to say that these protesters are racist - like the BNP - but like the BNP, should be given the right to say what they want to say? You're right. And what they have to say is racist - in this case, you might call it islamophobic? And there are people who are going to take advantage of that.

 

Or is it that you're concerned that people on here are trying to say that these racist protesters should not have the right to repeat whatever drivel they want to, and that's because of the influence of "bleeding heart liberals" who throw around the word "Islamophobia" to curtail any legitimate discussion of Islam's failings? Hell, they can protest whatever they want - as long as they do it from outside the walls of the mosques that we have the right to build wherever we so please.

 

I know exactly what I am saying, and have set it out in a clear and consistent manner. Regarding the bit in bold:

 

1. I believe freedom of expression is a principle which is wholly right. The BNP/Protesters should have the right to express themselves. You agree. Good.

 

2. I believe that euphemisms referring to a 'phobia' or irrational dislike of a religion are misleading and have been used in certain instances to attempt to stifle free expression. There are plenty of things within religions that I believe a rational person would dislike with good reason. There is a difference between actively hating or persecuting a religious group and criticising/satirising said religion. Terms such as 'Islamaphobia' blur these distinctions, and have helped lead to a situation where full discussion of Islam is somewhat of a taboo, which is bad.

An example is in this thread where I have not indicated any hatred or bigotry towards muslims (rather the opposite), yet certain posters have reacted with aggression toward me and others even implied that I may be some kind of holocaust denier or similar extreme right wing type.

 

3. I have acknowledged and given examples of far-right figures in the U.S. who are attempting to make gain from racism and hatred towards muslims. I have said I believe these people will fail to make significant political gain from this (cited Palin as a previous if less overt example than Gingrich). I also believe they should have the right to make these speeches, because I am reasonably happy with democracy so far when compared with other political systems.