Islamophobia in the US

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

So your biggest problem with this whole matter is semantics?

 

 

There is a difference between criticising a religion and actively seeking to persecute its members. It seems you have failed to recognise this distinction. A cartoon depiction of Muhammad will be called 'Islamophobic'.

 

Will it? Where? I'd have thought it would be the opposite of "islamophobic", seeing how it taunts those who threaten our freedom of exprssion rather than whipping up fear and hysteria. If anyone has failed to recognise a distinction here it's you.

 

Let's be honest and call it what it is.

 

Which is?

 

1. Semantics is the major issue regarding the term Islamophobia as opposed to racism or anti-religious persecution, I thought that much was clear.

 

2. Yes. In a discussion on BBC news (most high profile example, it's on youtube) amongst other places. Muslims who agreed with the censorship of the danish cartoons and any cartoons depicting Muhammed generally stated they should be banned because they are 'Islamophobic'. This insinuates that it is irrational to disagree that the depiction of Muhammed in cartoon form (prohibited in the Quu'uuran) is a sin. I disagree with this strongly.

 

3. Racism. Or anti-muslim hysteria.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[Happy Face 29]

So your biggest problem with this whole matter is semantics?

 

 

There is a difference between criticising a religion and actively seeking to persecute its members. It seems you have failed to recognise this distinction. A cartoon depiction of Muhammad will be called 'Islamophobic'.

 

Will it? Where? I'd have thought it would be the opposite of "islamophobic", seeing how it taunts those who threaten our freedom of exprssion rather than whipping up fear and hysteria. If anyone has failed to recognise a distinction here it's you.

 

Let's be honest and call it what it is.

 

Which is?

 

1. Semantics is the major issue regarding the term Islamophobia as opposed to racism or anti-religious persecution, I thought that much was clear.

 

2. Yes. In a discussion on BBC news (most high profile example, it's on youtube) amongst other places. Muslims who agreed with the censorship of the danish cartoons and any cartoons depicting Muhammed generally stated they should be banned because they are 'Islamophobic'.

 

3. Racism. Or anti-muslim hysteria.

 

 

1. While I agree it's an issue (similar to the misuse of "terrorist" instead of "Muslim" people like Leazes often lapse into), it's not the major issue here. I think the major issues are freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Both have been exercised here so far, but there's huge political, media and public pressure on the former resulting in the restriction of the latter, which any patriotic American should resist.

 

2. If they did in that case, they were mistaken in my opinion. Not in this case though. Cut and dry Islamophobia in this case.

 

3. All 3 really.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Happy Face

[Park Life 70]

Freedom of Speech that old chestnut.

 

Is that really what this hue and cry is really about?

Edited August 24, 2010 by Park Life

[Cid_MCDP 0]

Funny thing is if that oil spill had gone on for another month, or if some white girl had gotten kidnapped, nobody in this thread would be having this conversation.

[Happy Face 29]

Funny thing is if that oil spill had gone on for another month, or if some white girl had gotten kidnapped, nobody in this thread would be having this conversation.

 

 

No-one on here was having the debate while it was just a ridiculous Fox invention. The problem is the news has shamefully driven the story into something to discuss by constantly covering the polls and initiating protests and forcing every politician to state their voter friendly opinion giving credence to the mock right wing outrage.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Happy Face

[Park Life 70]

Funny thing is if that oil spill had gone on for another month, or if some white girl had gotten kidnapped, nobody in this thread would be having this conversation.

 

Word.

 

Rather awkwardly big business had become the enemy and looked uncomfortable in the spotlight, better to get it off center stage sharpish. Drilling rights! What drilling rights?

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

"there's huge political, media and public pressure"

 

That is quite an exaggeration in my opinion.

 

 

Regarding the term Islamophobia and the danger of such euphemisms:

 

The type of people who become outraged when Islam is criticised (and frankly at even less) and use the term Islamophobic get more angry at a protest like the one you posted than at an Islamic government attempting to kill a novelist for his writing (see Salman Rushdie). When it comes to it, they will not stand up for freedom of speech and in doing so aid and abet those who ultimately seek to stop it. More muslims are coming to the west and they will need to get used to a different culture where free inquiry and criticism of religion is fully acceptable. This is not helped by people within the west who get terribly upset on their behalf when something insensitive is said.

 

I have stated that I have no problem with muslims and find it an interesting religion culturally and historically. Later you responded to one of my points by bringing up everyone in history who has been persecuted/murdered for their religion and also Jews who suffered a genocide. You basically thought I'd declared muslims have never suffered persecution and asked if I felt the same way about jews etc. No doubt you thought I was 'Islamophobic'. I just find the attitude rediculous.

 

Come election day in the U.S. this will not be a major issue. It's all about the economy.

[Cid_MCDP 0]

Funny thing is if that oil spill had gone on for another month, or if some white girl had gotten kidnapped, nobody in this thread would be having this conversation.

 

 

No-one on here was having the debate while it was just a ridiculous Fox invention. The problem is the news has shamefully driven the story into something to discuss by constantly covering the polls and initiating protests and forcing every politician to state their voter friendly opinion giving credence to the mock right wing outrage.

 

Yup, pretty much. At least it's football season and I can distract myself with my fantasy team.

 

Funny thing is if that oil spill had gone on for another month, or if some white girl had gotten kidnapped, nobody in this thread would be having this conversation.

 

Word.

 

Rather awkwardly big business had become the enemy and looked uncomfortable in the spotlight, better to get it off center stage sharpish. Drilling rights! What drilling rights?

 

That's funny- that angle hadn't occurred me. Good point!

[acrossthepond 699]

The depiction of the Prophet isn't "forbidden in the Qur'an." You want to check your facts, mate.

 

@sniffer: "People like me?" And who might that be? It's good to know that you know me so well (or think you do), but I'd like to hear some specifics.

[Happy Face 29]

Regarding the term Islamophobia and the danger of such euphemisms:

 

The type of people who become outraged when Islam is criticised (and frankly at even less) and use the term Islamophobic get more angry at a protest like the one you posted than at an Islamic government attempting to kill a novelist for his writing (see Salman Rushdie). When it comes to it, they will not stand up for freedom of speech and in doing so aid and abet those who ultimately seek to stop it.

 

Quite a generalisation there. No-one oppposed to the Mosque or at the protest is actually criticising or satirising Islam here though are they? They're criticising the specific inncocent individuals behind the project (and many others trying to do the same around the country), linking them to terrorism and suggesting they're a danger to New Yorkers safety because they're muslims. Inciting that kind of unfounded fear is Islamophobia. I'm all for criticising Islam as a religion (like all others) on the grounds of it's backward thinking. I'm all for criticicising an Islamic government attempting to kill a novelist for his writing. That's not Islamophobia.

 

It's dangerous to confuse the two as you have here because it's what separates legitimate discussion of an entire group without restriction of their freedoms, as opposed to persecution of the members of a group based on the extremism of a limited number of it's members.

 

There's no contradiction in condemning the latter while embracing the former.

 

More muslims are coming to the west and they will need to get used to a different culture where free inquiry and criticism of religion is fully acceptable. This is not helped by people within the west who get terribly upset on their behalf when something insensitive is said.

 

It's helped less by refusing to allow them a church which would help them integrate. Treating them differently to members of any other religion.

 

I think I covered above the differences between people getting upset when something insensitive is said and what might actually happen here.

 

I have stated that I have no problem with muslims and find it an interesting religion culturally and historically. Later you responded to one of my points by bringing up everyone in history who has been persecuted/murdered for their religion and also Jews who suffered a genocide. You basically thought I'd declared muslims have never suffered persecution and asked if I felt the same way about jews etc. No doubt you thought I was 'Islamophobic'. I just find the attitude rediculous.

 

 

I never thought that and didn't ask that and never thought that. I find it a strange way to twist my point.

 

You said Islamophobia is a euphemism. My point was that it's not at all. You gave a definition of a "phobia" which was:

 

"an irrational, intense and persistent fear of ... people. The main symptom of this disorder is the excessive and unreasonable desire to avoid the feared stimulus."

What is the concern about this mosque if not a totally irrational fear of muslims (linking them all to Hamas for example) and an unreasonable desire to avoid them?

 

I was asking if you thought antisemitism was a euphemism too.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Happy Face

[Guest alex]

Couldn't be Vic by any chance, could it? Please let it be him

Surely Islamofascism is a far more ridiculous term. Not sure why Dan hasn't been taken to task over that one.

[Guest alex]

Have you heard of reading? You should try it, and cut out the condescending tone my friend.

 

[Dr Gloom 19801]

Couldn't be Vic by any chance, could it? Please let it be him

Surely Islamofascism is a far more ridiculous term. Not sure why Dan hasn't been taken to task over that one.

 

it's the yin to islamophobia's yan; i felt obliged

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

"What is the concern about this mosque if not a totally irrational fear of muslims "

 

Hatred, not fear.

 

"It's helped less by refusing to allow them a church which would help them integrate. Treating them differently to members of any other religion."

 

The building in question may well still be built.

 

"Quite a generalisation there. I'm all for criticising Islam as a religion (like all others) on the grounds of it's backward thinking. I'm all for criticicising an Islamic government attempting to kill a novelist for his writing. That's not Islamophobia.

 

It's dangerous to confuse the two as you have here because it's what separates legitimate discussion of an entire group without restriction of their freedoms, as opposed to persecution of the members of a group based on the extremism of a limited number of it's members."

 

There was criticism of Rushdie in the west for writing a novel which was 'islamophobic' and insulting to muslims. This including SHirly Temple who was a member of parliament at the time. There were quite a number of liberals who supported this disturbing view. Like I said on the semantics front, similar terms for Catholicism and other religions do not exist, and Islam is treated differently to other religions when it comes to censorship.

[Park Life 70]

Couldn't be Vic by any chance, could it? Please let it be him

Surely Islamofascism is a far more ridiculous term. Not sure why Dan hasn't been taken to task over that one.

 

Too erudite for Vic/Rico?

 

Vic was more one two sentences man.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Couldn't be Vic by any chance, could it? Please let it be him

Surely Islamofascism is a far more ridiculous term. Not sure why Dan hasn't been taken to task over that one.

 

I have never and never intend to own a cardigan. Now enough of this Islamojihadifascistic nonsense.

[Park Life 70]

I'll start taking Americans and their 'freedom of speech' seriously when I see flash mobs demonstrating about American occupation of various countries and their 58 worldwide bases. You dig.

[Park Life 70]

"What is the concern about this mosque if not a totally irrational fear of muslims "

 

Hatred, not fear.

 

"It's helped less by refusing to allow them a church which would help them integrate. Treating them differently to members of any other religion."

 

The building in question may well still be built.

 

"Quite a generalisation there. I'm all for criticising Islam as a religion (like all others) on the grounds of it's backward thinking. I'm all for criticicising an Islamic government attempting to kill a novelist for his writing. That's not Islamophobia.

 

It's dangerous to confuse the two as you have here because it's what separates legitimate discussion of an entire group without restriction of their freedoms, as opposed to persecution of the members of a group based on the extremism of a limited number of it's members."

 

There was criticism of Rushdie in the west for writing a novel which was 'islamophobic' and insulting to muslims. This including SHirly Temple who was a member of parliament at the time. There were quite a number of liberals who supported this disturbing view. Like I said on the semantics front, similar terms for Catholicism and other religions do not exist, and Islam is treated differently to other religions when it comes to censorship.

 

Personally I have seen very little balance in the U.S. media with regard to Islam and when it does occur it's on obscure channels or niche media. Vast swathes of Uncle Sam are still in the woods looking for berries.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

The U.S. media is obviously very biased however relatively small numbers watch it (yes, including Fox). It undoubtedly has an effect on its viewers though, but who could failed to be swayed by intellectual behemoths such as Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly?

[Meenzer 14030]

There was criticism of Rushdie in the west for writing a novel which was 'islamophobic' and insulting to muslims. This including SHirly Temple who was a member of parliament at the time.

What. The. Fuck? :lol: :lol:

[Guest alex]

On the good ship Lollypop?

She became a diplomat or something didn't she?

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

There was criticism of Rushdie in the west for writing a novel which was 'islamophobic' and insulting to muslims. This including SHirly Temple who was a member of parliament at the time.

What. The. Fuck? :lol: :lol:

 

 

I do apologise, it was Baroness Shirly Williams, I'm always getting them mixed up.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Kevin S. Assilleekunt

[Guest alex]

"What is the concern about this mosque if not a totally irrational fear of muslims "

 

Hatred, not fear.

 

"It's helped less by refusing to allow them a church which would help them integrate. Treating them differently to members of any other religion."

 

The building in question may well still be built.

 

"Quite a generalisation there. I'm all for criticising Islam as a religion (like all others) on the grounds of it's backward thinking. I'm all for criticicising an Islamic government attempting to kill a novelist for his writing. That's not Islamophobia.

 

It's dangerous to confuse the two as you have here because it's what separates legitimate discussion of an entire group without restriction of their freedoms, as opposed to persecution of the members of a group based on the extremism of a limited number of it's members."

 

There was criticism of Rushdie in the west for writing a novel which was 'islamophobic' and insulting to muslims. This including SHirly Temple who was a member of parliament at the time. There were quite a number of liberals who supported this disturbing view. Like I said on the semantics front, similar terms for Catholicism and other religions do not exist, and Islam is treated differently to other religions when it comes to censorship.

I think you're making stuff up to be honest. I remember the issuing of the fatwa well and the overwhelming public, media and political response was one of condemnation at the time. Who were these so-called liberals? (I thought you didn't like euphemisms anyway). Seemed like a huge fuss to make over such a tediously verbose novelist as well.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

The Lib Dems, for starters.

[Happy Face 29]

"What is the concern about this mosque if not a totally irrational fear of muslims "

 

Hatred, not fear.

 

"It's helped less by refusing to allow them a church which would help them integrate. Treating them differently to members of any other religion."

 

The building in question may well still be built.

 

"Quite a generalisation there. I'm all for criticising Islam as a religion (like all others) on the grounds of it's backward thinking. I'm all for criticicising an Islamic government attempting to kill a novelist for his writing. That's not Islamophobia.

 

It's dangerous to confuse the two as you have here because it's what separates legitimate discussion of an entire group without restriction of their freedoms, as opposed to persecution of the members of a group based on the extremism of a limited number of it's members."

 

There was criticism of Rushdie in the west for writing a novel which was 'islamophobic' and insulting to muslims. This including SHirly Temple who was a member of parliament at the time. There were quite a number of liberals who supported this disturbing view. Like I said on the semantics front, similar terms for Catholicism and other religions do not exist, and Islam is treated differently to other religions when it comes to censorship.

 

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."