Mags 1 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Put simply- mental illness or not he ran from a jet screaming he had a bomb whilst wearing a backpack/rucksack on his chest, refused to stop for security and then turned and ran back at the jet still saying he had a bomb. Since we don't tattoo 'Mentally ill' on peoples' foreheads here I can see how the marshalls could interprete that as a serious threat. One life vs many? Sad and unfortunate, and my heart goes out to his family but I do believe they acted appropriately. For whatever reasons, 1. he was off his meds which a seriously STUPID thing to do when you are bipolar 2. he acted in a suspicious and threatening manner which had his claims been true would have endangered many lives that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17531 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Put simply- mental illness or not he ran from a jet screaming he had a bomb whilst wearing a backpack/rucksack on his chest, refused to stop for security and then turned and ran back at the jet still saying he had a bomb. Since we don't tattoo 'Mentally ill' on peoples' foreheads here I can see how the marshalls could interprete that as a serious threat. One life vs many? Sad and unfortunate, and my heart goes out to his family but I do believe they acted appropriately. For whatever reasons, 1. he was off his meds which a seriously STUPID thing to do when you are bipolar 2. he acted in a suspicious and threatening manner which had his claims been true would have endangered many lives that day. 66158[/snapback] Virtually everything said in the London case was found subsequently to be untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Put simply- mental illness or not he ran from a jet screaming he had a bomb whilst wearing a backpack/rucksack on his chest, refused to stop for security and then turned and ran back at the jet still saying he had a bomb. Since we don't tattoo 'Mentally ill' on peoples' foreheads here I can see how the marshalls could interprete that as a serious threat. One life vs many? Sad and unfortunate, and my heart goes out to his family but I do believe they acted appropriately. For whatever reasons, 1. he was off his meds which a seriously STUPID thing to do when you are bipolar 2. he acted in a suspicious and threatening manner which had his claims been true would have endangered many lives that day. 66158[/snapback] Virtually everything said in the London case was found subsequently to be untrue. 66160[/snapback] Unlike that case I would imagine there are literally dozens of eyewitnesses who saw exactly what happened. As an aside the Beeb are reporting today that police who shot Menenzes (sp?) at Stockwell tube station may now face charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17531 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Put simply- mental illness or not he ran from a jet screaming he had a bomb whilst wearing a backpack/rucksack on his chest, refused to stop for security and then turned and ran back at the jet still saying he had a bomb. Since we don't tattoo 'Mentally ill' on peoples' foreheads here I can see how the marshalls could interprete that as a serious threat. One life vs many? Sad and unfortunate, and my heart goes out to his family but I do believe they acted appropriately. For whatever reasons, 1. he was off his meds which a seriously STUPID thing to do when you are bipolar 2. he acted in a suspicious and threatening manner which had his claims been true would have endangered many lives that day. 66158[/snapback] Virtually everything said in the London case was found subsequently to be untrue. 66160[/snapback] Unlike that case I would imagine there are literally dozens of eyewitnesses who saw exactly what happened. As an aside the Beeb are reporting today that police who shot Menenzes (sp?) at Stockwell tube station may now face charges. 66161[/snapback] Well there were plenty of witnesses in London too, but all I'm saying is I'll keep an open mind. I noticed that headline on the BBC; expecting a thread from Rob to pop up any minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags 1 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Put simply- mental illness or not he ran from a jet screaming he had a bomb whilst wearing a backpack/rucksack on his chest, refused to stop for security and then turned and ran back at the jet still saying he had a bomb. Since we don't tattoo 'Mentally ill' on peoples' foreheads here I can see how the marshalls could interprete that as a serious threat. One life vs many? Sad and unfortunate, and my heart goes out to his family but I do believe they acted appropriately. For whatever reasons, 1. he was off his meds which a seriously STUPID thing to do when you are bipolar 2. he acted in a suspicious and threatening manner which had his claims been true would have endangered many lives that day. 66158[/snapback] Virtually everything said in the London case was found subsequently to be untrue. 66160[/snapback] Wasn't it CCTV that showed the 'inaccuracies' or at least some of them in the London case? This guy in Florida is on camera too. While not saying 'He deserved it' I will say his actions on film support the marshals' decision to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Put simply- mental illness or not he ran from a jet screaming he had a bomb whilst wearing a backpack/rucksack on his chest, refused to stop for security and then turned and ran back at the jet still saying he had a bomb. Since we don't tattoo 'Mentally ill' on peoples' foreheads here I can see how the marshalls could interprete that as a serious threat. One life vs many? Sad and unfortunate, and my heart goes out to his family but I do believe they acted appropriately. For whatever reasons, 1. he was off his meds which a seriously STUPID thing to do when you are bipolar 2. he acted in a suspicious and threatening manner which had his claims been true would have endangered many lives that day. 66158[/snapback] Virtually everything said in the London case was found subsequently to be untrue. 66160[/snapback] Unlike that case I would imagine there are literally dozens of eyewitnesses who saw exactly what happened. As an aside the Beeb are reporting today that police who shot Menenzes (sp?) at Stockwell tube station may now face charges. 66161[/snapback] Well there were plenty of witnesses in London too, but all I'm saying is I'll keep an open mind. I noticed that headline on the BBC; expecting a thread from Rob to pop up any minute. 66164[/snapback] Fair enough re: keeping an open mind. It's a bit different though as there was a chain of events re: the shooting of the bloke in London with no one really being witness to them all, if you see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17531 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Put simply- mental illness or not he ran from a jet screaming he had a bomb whilst wearing a backpack/rucksack on his chest, refused to stop for security and then turned and ran back at the jet still saying he had a bomb. Since we don't tattoo 'Mentally ill' on peoples' foreheads here I can see how the marshalls could interprete that as a serious threat. One life vs many? Sad and unfortunate, and my heart goes out to his family but I do believe they acted appropriately. For whatever reasons, 1. he was off his meds which a seriously STUPID thing to do when you are bipolar 2. he acted in a suspicious and threatening manner which had his claims been true would have endangered many lives that day. 66158[/snapback] Virtually everything said in the London case was found subsequently to be untrue. 66160[/snapback] Unlike that case I would imagine there are literally dozens of eyewitnesses who saw exactly what happened. As an aside the Beeb are reporting today that police who shot Menenzes (sp?) at Stockwell tube station may now face charges. 66161[/snapback] Well there were plenty of witnesses in London too, but all I'm saying is I'll keep an open mind. I noticed that headline on the BBC; expecting a thread from Rob to pop up any minute. 66164[/snapback] Fair enough re: keeping an open mind. It's a bit different though as there was a chain of events re: the shooting of the bloke in London with no one really being witness to them all, if you see what I mean. 66167[/snapback] I guess I'm just suspicious because last time I went through American immigration it felt like they might shoot me, the bastards! Not exactly a friendly welcome these days, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I know 'terrorists' are not as highly trained as some would like us to believe but if you wanted to cause maximum damage whilst carrying a bomb would you run around like a headless chicken telling the heaily armed zealots that you had one? American immigration - farcical in my experience, these people are dangerously stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8936 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Rob you didn't answer the question. But I'll reply to your statement if I may "Innocent people should be given every chance" Surely guilty people would take advantage of this rather large leap of faith? I know that if it were common practise for an exhaustive and comprehensive process to determine guilt before taking lethal action were in place I'd expect my chances of completing my task to increase. If, however, I thought that those encharged with enforcing law were decisive and unafraid to act I'm sure I'd expect success to become less likely. I know that this sounds like ruling with an iron fist, but truly, when you're dealing with creatures whose purpose is to cause as much death and mayhem to innocent people.. I don't think we can apply the same rules as we apply to ourselves. If I were wearing a backpack and hurrying to catch a plane sporting a tan and a large beard and an armed man told me to freeze, well freeze I would. If I were to be walking through cutoms and a burly officer instructed me to step into a room while he performed deeper checks on me, then I'd comply. I'm not a simpering idiot, I simply know that if I do as instructed everything is more likly to go more smoothly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17531 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I know 'terrorists' are not as highly trained as some would like us to believe but if you wanted to cause maximum damage whilst carrying a bomb would you run around like a headless chicken telling the heaily armed zealots that you had one? American immigration - farcical in my experience, these people are dangerously stupid. 66180[/snapback] You're from Ireland, aren't you? I love the way they have immigration there at Shannon airport, presumably because they turn back so many Irish people, and it saves them a 7 hour trip. Had a very bad experience on a plane there once - never flying Aer Lingus again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8936 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I know 'terrorists' are not as highly trained as some would like us to believe but if you wanted to cause maximum damage whilst carrying a bomb would you run around like a headless chicken telling the heaily armed zealots that you had one? American immigration - farcical in my experience, these people are dangerously stupid. 66180[/snapback] you'd take the risk of letting someone carrying a rucksack and screaming he has a bomb simply carry on regardless? .... I'm not sure what is more insane... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17531 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I know 'terrorists' are not as highly trained as some would like us to believe but if you wanted to cause maximum damage whilst carrying a bomb would you run around like a headless chicken telling the heaily armed zealots that you had one? American immigration - farcical in my experience, these people are dangerously stupid. 66180[/snapback] you'd take the risk of letting someone carrying a rucksack and screaming he has a bomb simply carry on regardless? .... I'm not sure what is more insane... 66183[/snapback] I'll be honest, I haven't read the case in depth, and won't until the facts are clearly established, but how was he supposed to get a bomb through immigration? Virtually impossible now I would say, although security in the US was a total joke before 9/11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 you'd take the risk of letting someone carrying a rucksack and screaming he has a bomb simply carry on regardless? .... I'm not sure what is more insane... 66183[/snapback] Yes, you're right it's that black and white, well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8936 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 again I go back to the point I raised, Renton... you're a customs officer and someone is screaming he has a bomb... you sure you want to play craps with hundreds of peoples lives? or a turkey shoot with one? Are we to pander to the opinion that everyone is essentially good and if we back off and let people get along nicely everything will be fine? I would argue that human history has shown that in fact People are essentially greedy violent creatures who should (for the greater good) be put down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 You're from Ireland, aren't you? I love the way they have immigration there at Shannon airport, presumably because they turn back so many Irish people, and it saves them a 7 hour trip. Had a very bad experience on a plane there once - never flying Aer Lingus again! 66182[/snapback] I've always thought Irish immigraton was laughably bad, I've walked through, beeped and muttered something about my watch and they've just waved me on. What on earth happened? It's the only airline I'll fly over there as RyanAir are crooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17531 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 You're from Ireland, aren't you? I love the way they have immigration there at Shannon airport, presumably because they turn back so many Irish people, and it saves them a 7 hour trip. Had a very bad experience on a plane there once - never flying Aer Lingus again! 66182[/snapback] I've always thought Irish immigraton was laughably bad, I've walked through, beeped and muttered something about my watch and they've just waved me on. What on earth happened? It's the only airline I'll fly over there as RyanAir are crooks. 66189[/snapback] I was on a 747 taxiing at Shannon, at the rear, when all of a sudden there was an explosion behind me. The plane slammed its brakes on, but the cabin crew froze - they were clueless. Anyway, there was fumes coming out a vent which made me dizzy, so I took the initiative, undid my seat belt and got up. I was the first to do this, and it sparked mass panic, and I was actually one of last off the last off the plane, ripping my arm on the emergency shoot on the way out. Turned out it was a door that exploded - had it done that in mid air the consequences could have been disasterous, especially for those sitting near it (always fasten your seat belts!). This was in 1992, and despite having flown over 100 times since, I am still shit scared at take off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Jesus wept! Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted December 9, 2005 Author Share Posted December 9, 2005 Put simply- mental illness or not he ran from a jet screaming he had a bomb whilst wearing a backpack/rucksack on his chest, refused to stop for security and then turned and ran back at the jet still saying he had a bomb. Since we don't tattoo 'Mentally ill' on peoples' foreheads here I can see how the marshalls could interprete that as a serious threat. One life vs many? Sad and unfortunate, and my heart goes out to his family but I do believe they acted appropriately. For whatever reasons, 1. he was off his meds which a seriously STUPID thing to do when you are bipolar 2. he acted in a suspicious and threatening manner which had his claims been true would have endangered many lives that day. 66158[/snapback] Virtually everything said in the London case was found subsequently to be untrue. 66160[/snapback] tsk tsk - what a cynic - welcome !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted December 9, 2005 Author Share Posted December 9, 2005 Rob you didn't answer the question. But I'll reply to your statement if I may "Innocent people should be given every chance" Surely guilty people would take advantage of this rather large leap of faith? I know that if it were common practise for an exhaustive and comprehensive process to determine guilt before taking lethal action were in place I'd expect my chances of completing my task to increase. If, however, I thought that those encharged with enforcing law were decisive and unafraid to act I'm sure I'd expect success to become less likely. I know that this sounds like ruling with an iron fist, but truly, when you're dealing with creatures whose purpose is to cause as much death and mayhem to innocent people.. I don't think we can apply the same rules as we apply to ourselves. If I were wearing a backpack and hurrying to catch a plane sporting a tan and a large beard and an armed man told me to freeze, well freeze I would. If I were to be walking through cutoms and a burly officer instructed me to step into a room while he performed deeper checks on me, then I'd comply. I'm not a simpering idiot, I simply know that if I do as instructed everything is more likly to go more smoothly. 66181[/snapback] well we can be 100% certain and shoot everyone or 100% stupid and let everyone do what the hell they like there IS some sort of middle ground - I guess we all differ on where we draw the line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I would start by shooting all students tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I was on a 747 taxiing at Shannon, at the rear, when all of a sudden there was an explosion behind me. The plane slammed its brakes on, but the cabin crew froze - they were clueless. Anyway, there was fumes coming out a vent which made me dizzy, so I took the initiative, undid my seat belt and got up. I was the first to do this, and it sparked mass panic, and I was actually one of last off the last off the plane, ripping my arm on the emergency shoot on the way out. Turned out it was a door that exploded - had it done that in mid air the consequences could have been disasterous, especially for those sitting near it (always fasten your seat belts!). This was in 1992, and despite having flown over 100 times since, I am still shit scared at take off. 66194[/snapback] Yeah, that sounds more like the problems you experience with the Irish. Generally a very incompetent lot, with our 'sure, it'll be grand' mentality. I don't mind that so much but add the newly found bad attitude we've aqcuired in the last few years and we're a bit of a nighmare to be honest! Can't get the image of Hobbes holding on to his seatbelt on a 7 hour flight out of my head now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags 1 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I would start by shooting all students tbh. 66211[/snapback] And immigrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I would start by shooting all students tbh. 66211[/snapback] And immigrants. 66218[/snapback] Yanks first. If we do what GF kind of suggested earlier and shoot ALL foreigners, then everything should work itself out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags 1 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I would start by shooting all students tbh. 66211[/snapback] And immigrants. 66218[/snapback] Yanks first. If we do what GF kind of suggested earlier and shoot ALL foreigners, then everything should work itself out. 66222[/snapback] Nah- who would do all the shooting first before politely asking what one's intentions are? Meh- gun freaks. The lot of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Nah- who would do all the shooting first before politely asking what one's intentions are? Meh- gun freaks. The lot of us. 66225[/snapback] We could leave a few High School students until the rest of us are gone. Oh, so wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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