PaddockLad 14580 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Joint 3rd and above Liverpool Stevie talking PISH most of the time then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14580 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964 Hillsborough files being made public today...cant see anyone leaving anything too incriminating in them so it might be a bit of a let down for the families... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk...eyside-19543964 Hillsborough files being made public today...cant see anyone leaving anything too incriminating in them so it might be a bit of a let down for the families... Had a brief twitter chat with a scouse journo. I don't believe, even if there was full disclosure, that it'd be enough. It's gone beyond a search for "justice" and is now just a cycle of grief. They're more bothered about the nation noticing them, than they are about letting these people who lost family members move on. It's not healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14580 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) Had a brief twitter chat with a scouse journo. I don't believe, even if there was full disclosure, that it'd be enough. It's gone beyond a search for "justice" and is now just a cycle of grief. They're more bothered about the nation noticing them, than they are about letting these people who lost family members move on. It's not healthy. I think thats true of a number of them....I think theyres also a fair proportion of the bereaved families that have moved on as well and have nothing to do with whats going on today. Thing is, theres no right and wrong way to grieve. And if you're of the finger pointing nature where someone or some group of people just have blamed then this is the end result if you feel theres been a cover up. I think the people of Merseyside are generally on the side of those pushing for this, but I can sort of understand that people just think they should move on as well. But its difficult to say that to the now elderly mothers of the lads and lasses who lost their lives that day. If they want the real truth, they should have it iyam. Edited September 12, 2012 by PaddockLad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I think thats true of a number of them....I think theyres also a fair proportion of the bereaved families that have moved on as well and have nothing to do with whats going on today. Thing is, theres no right and wrong way to grieve. And if you're of the finger pointing nature where someone or some group of people just have blamed then this is the end result if you feel theres been a cover up. I think the people of Merseyside are generally on the side of those pushing for this, but I can sort of understand that people just think they should move on as well. But its difficult to say that to the now elderly mothers of the lads and lasses who lost their lives that day. If they want the real truth, they should have it iyam. I've not doubt there are people who will privately be relieved and genuinely able to finally put this to rest. However, I don't believe for one second there will come a time when Liverpool as a city won't play the victim card at every opportunity. While it's obvious and clear that the police and the government and the journos have covered themselves in a pile of shit for decades, there will now come a situation where the scousers won't accept any responsibility for the tragedy. They're not at the front of the queue of people who're to blame, but they're definitely in there. End of the day, I'm glad the truth (or as much as anyone is ever likely to see) has come out and I hope it provides some measure of closure for the families of the victims. I just can't see a time when the scousers aren't demanding further justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14580 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I've not doubt there are people who will privately be relieved and genuinely able to finally put this to rest. However, I don't believe for one second there will come a time when Liverpool as a city won't play the victim card at every opportunity. While it's obvious and clear that the police and the government and the journos have covered themselves in a pile of shit for decades, there will now come a situation where the scousers won't accept any responsibility for the tragedy. They're not at the front of the queue of people who're to blame, but they're definitely in there. End of the day, I'm glad the truth (or as much as anyone is ever likely to see) has come out and I hope it provides some measure of closure for the families of the victims. I just can't see a time when the scousers aren't demanding further justice. So in what way were the fans to blame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26284 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 End of the day, I'm glad the truth (or as much as anyone is ever likely to see) has come out and I hope it provides some measure of closure for the families of the victims. I just can't see a time when the scousers aren't demanding further justice. I caught a few mins of PMQs and Frank Field (Labour MP for Birkenhead) was already demanding a fresh inquiry and for Cameron to visit the people of Liverpool to tell them what he's going to do next. This is far from over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 So in what way were the fans to blame? There were still fans without tickets crushing into the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14580 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) There were still fans without tickets crushing into the ground. Am not an expert on the intimate details of the Taylor Report. Does that sentance actually come from it? Or possibly was it mentioned in the (on the evidnce of today, largly discredited) inquest? Edited September 12, 2012 by PaddockLad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Am not an expert on the intimate details of the Taylor Report. Does that sentance actually come from it? Or possibly was it mentioned in the (on the evidnce of today, largly discredited) inquest? No it doesn't come from any report, it comes from conversations with scousers. Like I said, they're not a the front of the queue of who's to blame, but they're definitely not without blame themselves. Also, I don't see the value in naming police officers who were at the stadium? Those that edited the reports, sure, but the officers on the ground? Where's the value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14580 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 No it doesn't come from any report, it comes from conversations with scousers. Like I said, they're not a the front of the queue of who's to blame, but they're definitely not without blame themselves. Also, I don't see the value in naming police officers who were at the stadium? Those that edited the reports, sure, but the officers on the ground? Where's the value? Strikes me as today's findings largely give the lie to those sort of stories though. Theres been a huge cover up, and part of it was the "ticketless, drunken, mob" story, which began circulating on the Saturday evening of the disaster. Today has said thats all bollocks. The coroner ordered the blood alcohol level of every corpse lying in the Hillborough gym was taken on, as far as the panel could tell, Saturday evening or early Sunday morning. When 2 bodies were found with zero alcohol in their bloodstreams, the national crime computer was accessed to see if they had a criminal record. Why were they doing all this? Your scouse mates are miss-informed according to the evidence of today. The largely honest and decent officers who were pulling bodies from the Leppings Lane terraces are victims of all this too, no doubt emotionally in a huge way due to what actually happened but they also had any statement or notebook entry which in any way painted the SYP in apoor light doctored by others, and then presented to Lord Taylors team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Strikes me as today's findings largely give the lie to those sort of stories though. Theres been a huge cover up, and part of it was the "ticketless, drunken, mob" story, which began circulating on the Saturday evening of the disaster. Today has said thats all bollocks. The coroner ordered the blood alcohol level of every corpse lying in the Hillborough gym was taken on, as far as the panel could tell, Saturday evening or early Sunday morning. When 2 bodies were found with zero alcohol in their bloodstreams, the national crime computer was accessed to see if they had a criminal record. Why were they doing all this? Your scouse mates are miss-informed according to the evidence of today. The largely honest and decent officers who were pulling bodies from the Leppings Lane terraces are victims of all this too, no doubt emotionally in a huge way due to what actually happened but they also had any statement or notebook entry which in any way painted the SYP in apoor light doctored by others, and then presented to Lord Taylors team. Wait, my statement is getting clouded in other things there PL. I'm not supporting the line that came out the day after, about a drunken ticketless mob. I'm not saying Duckenfield isn't the perpetrator of a horrific lie and I wholeheartedly agree that his actions (in opening the second gate) directly lead to the injuries and deaths that followed. Are you stating that there were no ticketless fans crushing to get inside? That there were no drunken fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3977 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Given the size of the paddock, how many ticketless fans do you think would have been required to push the line from discomfort to disaster? I'd say more than 500 - do you honestly think there were that many or more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Given the size of the paddock, how many ticketless fans do you think would have been required to push the line from discomfort to disaster? I'd say more than 500 - do you honestly think there were that many or more? I do. Consider how many ticketless fans we take abroad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14580 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Wait, my statement is getting clouded in other things there PL. I'm not supporting the line that came out the day after, about a drunken ticketless mob. I'm not saying Duckenfield isn't the perpetrator of a horrific lie and I wholeheartedly agree that his actions (in opening the second gate) directly lead to the injuries and deaths that followed. Are you stating that there were no ticketless fans crushing to get inside? That there were no drunken fans? No, there have been drunks at every match I've ever been to. Ticketless fans were almost certainly present too,again just going on my own experiance and especially in those days, the season before FA cup semi finals were screened live for the first time. But theyve not been found, even anecdotally, to be in any way the cause or the blame for what happened according to the evidence of an inquest, the Taylor Report and todays independant review of all documents related to the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 No, there have been drunks at every match I've ever been to. Ticketless fans were almost certainly present too,again just going on my own experiance and especially in those days, the season before FA cup semi finals were screened live for the first time. But theyve not been found, even anecdotally, to be in any way the cause or the blame for what happened according to the evidence of an inquest, the Taylor Report and todays independant review of all documents related to the matter. That's why I'm saying my statement is clouded. I am categorically, deliberately, unreservedly and completely supportive of the findings of the report, that show the fault lies with Duckenfield for the tragedy and Government (local and national), other officials and Jounralists for the subsequent cover-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26284 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 IIRC the Taylor Report dismissed ticketless fans as being a cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I guess I'm not explaining myself at all as I never said they were the cause. My complaint is that this isn't enough, there will never be enough, this won't end. The families who have got closure, will have this dredged up again and again and again as other liverpool fans will clamour for another inquest, and then seek arrests, then seek recompense, then seek hearings as to why the arrests took so long, then why the remuneration took so long, then seek to punish the publishers of this report because it wasn't released earlier, then they'll look to have a hearing into the subsequent hearings because they haven't been satisfactory. Frankly, we will never hear the end of this, not because the tragedy and subsequent cover-up isn't important or news worthy, simply because the people who wallow in their victim complex don't want closure, they want to wallow in their victim complex. (And yes, they are the victims here before people misinterpret my meaning) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14580 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 That's why I'm saying my statement is clouded. I am categorically, deliberately, unreservedly and completely supportive of the findings of the report, that show the fault lies with Duckenfield for the tragedy and Government (local and national), other officials and Jounralists for the subsequent cover-up. but you started out saying "There were still fans without tickets crushing into the ground." Correct me if I'm wrong here, but because ticketless fans were present you think they must be in some way culpable for the events that followed when theres not a scrap of evidence to support this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 but you started out saying "There were still fans without tickets crushing into the ground." Correct me if I'm wrong here, but because ticketless fans were present you think they must be in some way culpable for the events that followed when theres not a scrap of evidence to support this? If scousers (hardly the most self-deprecating of people) tell me there were ticketless fans crushing to get in, I believe them. I'm absolutely NOT saying they're the reason for the deaths and injuries. I am saying that after this report, we will see the Liverpool fans painted as angels. They were not. This is why I said (repeatedly) my statement was being clouded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5903 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Wouldn't say the fans are painted as angels. 96 Families have spent decades being told their relatives were at fault for their own deaths. Today it has been confirmed this wasn't the case and the police covered it up. Some stuff doesn't need to be said Fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14580 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 If scousers (hardly the most self-deprecating of people) tell me there were ticketless fans crushing to get in, I believe them. I'm absolutely NOT saying they're the reason for the deaths and injuries. I am saying that after this report, we will see the Liverpool fans painted as angels. They were not. This is why I said (repeatedly) my statement was being clouded. Ok fair enough. explain this then: They're not at the front of the queue of people who're to blame, but they're definitely in there. The bit in italics was posted by you half an hour ago. I agree ticketless fans were present. Show me the evidence for stating they were in some way to blame as you claimed earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3977 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 If scousers (hardly the most self-deprecating of people) tell me there were ticketless fans crushing to get in, I believe them. I'm absolutely NOT saying they're the reason for the deaths and injuries. I am saying that after this report, we will see the Liverpool fans painted as angels. They were not. This is why I said (repeatedly) my statement was being clouded. In the context of the times, I would never call them or any other fans angels. I completely accept that games in that era were prone to "boisterous" behaviour even when not full blown bother but I think it perpetuates the non-closure side of things if people keep picking niblets which are undoubtedly contributory factors and inflating them too much. The overriding cause was failure on the part of several authorities - I think the subsequent lies and cover-up in some ways prove that more than the actual eye-witness evidence. I think everyone knows what I think of Scousers but that doesn't detract from a more fundamental camaraderie which HIllsborough engenders in anyone who watched football pre-allseaters - the overwhelming acceptance that it could have been us or anyone else. I think the attitude of "yeah but Scousers were worse" is going a bit too far even in Football grudgery which I'm a fan of in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Ok fair enough. explain this then: They're not at the front of the queue of people who're to blame, but they're definitely in there. The bit in italics was posted by you half an hour ago. I agree ticketless fans were present. Show me the evidence for stating they were in some way to blame as you claimed earlier. I was told by liverpool fans there were ticketless liverpool fans crushing to get in. It's from that foundation I made the previous statement. Perhaps a poor choice of words and if that's what this whole misunderstanding has been about, I apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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