Park Life 70 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I suggest you do some research into it. One angle could be that he is being unfairly denied the opportunity to earn performance related pay with regards to appearance, goal and assist bonuses. There are other arguments that can also be made. God knows how much other ammo they have up their sleeve on the treatment of Hatem...I'm sure we don't know the half of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Yep, don't even have to look beyond the club or management to find precedence. Hadn't thought about it before, but seems reasonable and quite possibly being considered. Footballers are contractors, so its very different employment law. While the windows is open, we told him to find another club as he's not part of the plans. It can easily be argued he's not been given the opportunity to play, as the club dont want to risk injury. Once the windows shuts the justification for freezing him out is no longer valid. Ben Arfa could easily seek a contract termination under the ruling we signed jonas. And with Ben Arfa in the last year of his contract I can see Ashley being mighty pissed with Pardew's handling of the situation. All that bring said, if Ben Arfa suddenly is brought back into the first team, I wouldn't be surprised if Pardew had no say in freezing him out. I'm pretty sure Barton had similar run with management when he went into the last year of his contract. I vaguely remember Willy McKay saying Barton would train with the reserves and leave in a free, shortly before we let him leave for nowt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Yeah, Barton had exactly the same treatment, maybe the decision isn't Pardews. http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/agent-admits-barton-bamboozled-newcastle-axing-1795091#.VALm_TjTXZs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Footballers are contractors, so its very different employment law. And football managers are...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 And football managers are...? same. When managers leave by mutual consent, it really means the manager has signed a compromise agreement, where he's paid x amount in return not bad mouthing the club. It's why you get so few manager auto biographies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 You said players were contracted and therefore different to managers. That the Keegan case was not relevant to the Ben Arfa case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 You said players were contracted and therefore different to managers. That the Keegan case was not relevant to the Ben Arfa case. Sorry I meant different to you and I. It's probably more the Transfer window than the contract type that would be important. Players have agents to handle the process, so its all part of the job. Sadly there is no manager transfer window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26283 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Regardless, your assertion that footballers are contractors rather than employees is entirely incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Regardless, your assertion that footballers are contractors rather than employees is entirely incorrect. Aye I must be incorrect. It's not like footballers ever get contract extensions or sign a 5 year contracts or owt like that. fwiw, at no point did I say they werent employees. I said employment law is different because they are contractors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26283 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 If you are a contractor then you aren't an employee. Perhaps you need to brush up on the terminology that you're using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 If you are a contractor then you aren't an employee. Perhaps you need to brush up on the terminology that you're using. Would you like a link to the hmrc definition of a Self Employed Contractor? Or maybe a dictionary definition of the word contractor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14580 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Am not entirely sure, but I don't think the players in the top couple of divisions technically are employees due to their method of payment i.e. the wages are paid to companies created in the player's name for tax purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Think you two are letting semantics drag each of you away from your points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26283 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 What point are you trying to make exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26283 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Am not entirely sure, but I don't think the players in the top couple of divisions technically are employees due to their method of payment i.e. the wages are paid to companies created in the player's name for tax purposes. I don't think they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26283 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Think you two are letting semantics drag each of you away from your points. When his point is about employment law then it does actually matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I see "dictionary definition" and I get nervous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26283 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Would you like a link to the hmrc definition of a Self Employed Contractor? Or maybe a dictionary definition of the word contractor? Listen, while I may not have a fancy dan degree in law from a top UK university I... oh hold on I do have a fancy dan degree in law from a top UK university and as someone who got an excellent result in employment law I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. And I would be very interested to see your HMRC definition of a self employed contractor. Edited August 31, 2014 by ewerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34419 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Listen, while I may not have a fancy dan degree in law from a top UK university I... oh hold on I do have a fancy dan degree in law from a top UK university... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Listen, while I may not have a fancy dan degree in law from a top UK university I... oh hold on I do have a fancy dan degree in law from a top UK university and as someone who got an excellent result in employment law I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. And I would be very interested to see your HMRC definition of a self employed contractor. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/ Maybe you misread what I said and took the reference to footballers being contractors (on fixed term contracts) as inferring they were self employed or independent contractor. Either way because of the fixed term contract (and more so the transfer window) an employment tribunal would treat a footballer very different to you or I, actually maybe not you as you have a fancy dan law degree from a top university. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26283 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 When you are talking about employment law, contractors are self-employed contractors. If you're going to speak about points of law then learn the parlance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonasjuice 0 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Listen, while I may not have a fancy dan degree in law from a top UK university I... oh hold on I do have a fancy dan degree in law from a top UK university :lol: Easily your best work on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobos 297 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I'll join this as I like a good HMRC conv with you ewark. I thought that footballers aren't contractors in the līmited company way anymore, HMRC and the FA put a stop to that back in 2012. Or am I mistaken? Also I was for many years a contractor paid into a LTD, and I was an employee , not of the end client but of the LTD. Tax, sick pay etc were all the LTD's responsibility, but ultimately (unless there was a MOO agreement in) the end client WAS tied to the contract terms of employment (cough, enagagement) so you could litigate for the full amount of pay if engagement terms were changed midway though. Bottom line for me is that Hatem is being harshly treated and if hes an employee as I believe all footballers now have to be, he could press for constructive dismissal, but if he is working through his own company then he can only really push for severance with his entire term paid up, bu is ūnlikely to win anything if the club can say he has acted unprofessionally. My 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Ben Arfa thread hit a new low... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26283 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 That's it. I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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