Thatcher and Hillsborough

[Gemmill 34166]

Christmas Tree appears to be the intellectual crash test dummy of this message board

 

[spongebob toonpants 3584]

i have to say Rocky Road is eloquent in his bombastic libertarianism.

 

Christmas Tree appears to be the intellectual crash test dummy of this message board

 

Ha Ha - Iwas just about to try and describe Rocky Road, and I'd just decided on pompous over bombastic. I'm impressed by the combination of wrong boring and unreadable he manages to achieve

 

In my opinion anybody who was over 16 during Thatcher's reign and doesnt consider her evil has an opinion that is worthless. And anybody who says anything along the lines of times may have been hard but I left school but found a job is an ignorant cunt.

 

I've never had a day out of work in my life, have always been pretty succesful and had a decent standard of living but I still know who the enemy is

[TheDimpleboy 0]

 

Christmas Tree appears to be the intellectual crash test dummy of this message board

 

:lol:

[Gene_Clark 12]

Ha Ha - Iwas just about to try and describe Rocky Road, and I'd just decided on pompous over bombastic. I'm impressed by the combination of wrong boring and unreadable he manages to achieve

 

In my opinion anybody who was over 16 during Thatcher's reign and doesnt consider her evil has an opinion that is worthless. And anybody who says anything along the lines of times may have been hard but I left school but found a job is an ignorant cunt.

 

I've never had a day out of work in my life, have always been pretty succesful and had a decent standard of living but I still know who the enemy is

 

if i ever meet you, i'll buy you 3 pints of beer for that post

[Gene_Clark 12]

So your recollections of how good life was before Thatcher came along and ruined it for everyone, and more importantly how well the economy was perfoming in light of everything that was going on, is from the perspective of a teenage kid who, if normal (big if), would at the time have been of an evening trying to finger lasses in the woods rather than watching the ten o'clock news. Why the fuck am I not surprised?

 

it was the 9 o'clock news then & i'm gay

[PaddockLad 14525]

 

 

You're always going to be dissapointed if you never believe what comes out

 

 

Deary me toryboy you're hoisted by your own petard with that one...are you American becuase you don't seem to understand irony very well. Do you think you'd be on here lashing out at anyone who thinks Thatcher despised ordinary people if the families of the 96 who lost their lives had just accepted the findings of the inquest? No amount of flowery prose is going to save you from that point.

 

Youve used your imagination with a lot of your anwers, avoided some of the more difficult questions and admitted to just plain making things up (Thatcher wouldnt have needed to authorise the prosecution of fuckin anyone, as you acknowledge there was evidence to send to the DPP about the SYP, even after the bullshit inquest) so it would appear that subsequent investigations (which you correctly point out that the families do want) may yield further revalations; the question remains, who got the WMP involved? thats a Home Secretary level decison...you know, senior member of the cabinet level. Keep on denying any criticism of the saintly Margaret if you must. I'll bide my time and see what comes out next. If there are revalations that finger the government of the time I certainly wont be as surprised as you're likely to be.

[TheMoog 0]

Fuck me, is this giant chip on the shoulder still rumbling on?

[Park Life 70]

It's in red he must be serious!

[Kitman 2188]

It's in red he must be serious!

 

Red's the colour of socialism. Another well known fact.

[Tooj 17]

[Monroe Transfer 0]

Don't rate his signature much tbh.

[Toonpack 6766]

Ha Ha - Iwas just about to try and describe Rocky Road, and I'd just decided on pompous over bombastic. I'm impressed by the combination of wrong boring and unreadable he manages to achieve

 

In my opinion anybody who was over 16 during Thatcher's reign and doesnt consider her evil has an opinion that is worthless. And anybody who says anything along the lines of times may have been hard but I left school but found a job is an ignorant cunt.

 

I've never had a day out of work in my life, have always been pretty succesful and had a decent standard of living but I still know who the enemy is

 

I'm no Thatcherite but that is all totally laughable (especially the bold bit)

[Christmas Tree 3997]

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ios-hillsborough-exclusive-revealed--the-critical-role-of-jack-straw-8165990.html

Edited September 23, 2012 by Christmas Tree

[NJS 3960]

By and large anyone who refers to her as "Maggie" is a cunt.

 

 

 

[PaddockLad 14525]

The critical word there was *never*. As in, it's fine to not really believe a finding of accidental death when there's a campaign set up detailing how it's wrong. It's quite another to still carp on when there's been an independent panel that's gone over all the evidence, and found not a shred that shows it was all evil Maggies fault. The families do not want further investigations, they want prosecutions based on what's already been found by the panel. Do you really not understand the difference? And who said Thatcher needed to authorize a prosecution? She can recommend the DPP do it, but she can't make him. As I said to Gene, if you think that's such a terrible system of government/justice, then you should still be very unhappy now, because it's still the system we use, despite a decade or more of glorious Labour government. If you want to know who got the WMP involved, I'm quite sure that will be in the panel's report. It's jam packed full of "revelations", just not the one you seem to have wanted.

 

err...that would be you then, earlier in the thread. Remember?...

• 
   
  

 

it was Thatcher who recommended the guy be prosecuted based on the findings

 

And again, stop twisting what Ive posted. I havent claimed Thatcher was responsible, I've said that I think senior members of her government, possibly including her, knew about the criminal cover up and did nothing to prevent it rendering the inquest and subsequent attempted prosecutions of SYP pretty worthless and indeed pointless. Thats my opinion, we'll see what comes next.

[PaddockLad 14525]

By and large anyone who refers to her as "Maggie" is a cunt.

 

post of the decade

[spongebob toonpants 3584]

I'm no Thatcherite but that is all totally laughable (especially the bold bit)

 

Thus proving your opinion is worthless

[McFaul 35]

I got a B in my Economics A-Level I was fucking knocking one out because I did little revision, and my course work was largely shite. That said I'm not economically or politically minded at all to any great degree, I was a baby when Thatcher came to power and I was still very much a child when she left office in 1991. I don't get involved in great political debates, because while I'm interested I don't hold the strength of opinion or knowledge that many people do.

 

Having lived through the 80's as a child, my father was in and out of work, more in than out and when he was in, he made fantastic sums of money largely through the building of large offshore oil rigs. Tyneside would've died a painful death, if we'd never have found oil in the early 70's, maybe the UK would to a lesser extent. So I'm aware of the hardship we faced highlighted by many TV shows of the time like AWP. There was a definitely north/south divide - economically it is even provable there was. The North largely ended at Sheffield, and the South began in Derbyshire, and for these two areas there were vast chasms in income, unemployment levels, and private and public investment. However, the country couldn't go on being dictated by out of date industries like coal mining. There had to be a change in the things we did in this country, and the areas that suffered the most were all in the North because of the very nature of the industries in these areas, that as I've said had a life span. Things had to change, she changed them, and the country gradually prospered as a whole as a result of the changes she implemented. I don't see how that can be argued with, the sad thing is the North East saw the worst of those painful times.

Edited September 24, 2012 by McFaul

[PaddockLad 14525]

 

Authorising and recommending is the same thing to you is it? How odd. As for this hope that somehow Thatcher is going to be blamed for the lack of justice just because she was aware the SYP had bullshitted their way through the aftermath and still did nothing, then your hope is forlorn. She accepted findings of Taylor which highlighted SYP's role and bullshit, she recommendeed prosecution of the man identified as being the most responsible, and she didn't interfere with the workings of the coroner, or the high court judges who reviewed his decisions. If you were hoping that she would have done something more, then ironically, you're arguing for a state where the powers of the Prime Minister are extended beyond anything they've ever been before. Instead of waiting for things nobody is looking for, why not direct your attention at Jack Straw, who is as far as I can see, the only person in any senior overnment position whose been shown to have acted improperly in any of this.

 

If she knew of the cover up, and did nothing to prevent bullshit evidence going to the inquest, that wouldnt necessarily mean she or any other ministers of the time were culpable in the cover up?...ok, fair enough. Not how I see it but there you go. I don't live in hope of anything, I think theres more to come out, possibly when those still alive from SYP start getting fingered again after a possible new inquest, which some bereaved family members do want.

 

Far be it for me to defend Jack Straw, but are you referring to this?...

 

Mr Straw wrote to the then Attorney-General, John Morris: "I am certain that continuing public concern will not be allayed with a reassurance from the Home Office that there is no new evidence. I therefore propose that there should be an independent examination of the alleged new evidence by a senior legal figure." At the end of June 1997, he met Lord Justice Stuart-Smith, appointed to lead the review. He told him that his officials had already looked at the case and concluded that "there was not sufficient evidence to justify a new inquiry".

 

That was in June 1997, a decade before the Hillsborough panel was even thought of. The only new evidence came as a result of the panel's findings. But I do accept the panel's findings did paint him in an incredibly poor light, he certanly appears to be sweeping the whole thing under the carpet:

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ios-hillsborough-exclusive-revealed--the-critical-role-of-jack-straw-8165990.html

 

But he didnt let the original bent evidence through to the inquest, which may only be morally bankrupt as well, equally perhaps not, plainly am not a lawyer. We'll see.

[NJS 3960]

Thing is Stevie, the coal didn't run out. The biggest seam in Europe was drowned when Westoe was shut.

 

Other countries realised that subsidies made sense. The closures were political not economic.

 

I'm not saying a move away from those industries wasn't right in the long run but it was the brutal haste with no thought for replacements that was the real pain.

[McFaul 35]

Thing is Stevie, the coal didn't run out. The biggest seam in Europe was drowned when Westoe was shut.

 

Other countries realised that subsidies made sense. The closures were political not economic.

 

I'm not saying a move away from those industries wasn't right in the long run but it was the brutal haste with no thought for replacements that was the real pain.

Of course it was painful, but ultimately she was right in moving away from those industries. We make next to fuck all in this country now which is sad, but in the mean time London has become economically the most important city in the world, and even though we're in recession no one can deny generally the standard of living is a lot higher now than it was in 1982, and as you agreed with me there, we HAD to change what we did in this country, or we'd end up like Poland.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Lets not forget Nissan (86) and all the other japanese companies she brought to the UK. Nissan was nearly all down to her.

 

As leader of the opposition in 1977 she had visited one of Nissan's automated plants and saw it as a model for how she wanted things done in Britain.

 

She had stayed in touch with Mr Kawamata and in 1982 made a point of visiting him personally to put the case for Britain.

No surprise, then, that once Nissan had decided to build in Britain and she was invited to open the factory, she painted Nissan's decision as a vindication of everything she was doing.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8253169.stm

 

No one would deny a lot suffered, but its quite scary to imagine what state the UK would be in today had she not been Prime Minister.

[PaddockLad 14525]

Lets not forget Nissan (86) and all the other japanese companies she brought to the UK. Nissan was nearly all down to her.

 

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/8253169.stm

 

No one would deny a lot suffered, but its quite scary to imagine what state the UK would be in today had she not been Prime Minister.

 

Are there any figures of what was saved in the 80s when publicly funded industry was shut down v the cost of benefits in those communities affected now?...it would make an interesting comparison,. Reap what you sow and all that...

[McFaul 35]

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf

 

Happy face will put his eye oot when he sees all of the "interesting" statistics in this link, but go down to XI, I'll be honest it surprised me that unemployment in the 70s was so low, it was largely 2% for the whole decade that's fucking fantastic, then reached a peak of 12% under Thatcher in 1986, although as anyone would concede changes did need making for the long term of the country.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Are there any figures of what was saved in the 80s when publicly funded industry was shut down v the cost of benefits in those communities affected now?...it would make an interesting comparison,. Reap what you sow and all that...

 

Thats a lovely argument in theory but how many industries would we subsidise? Coal, ship building, Steal, Gas, Telcoms, Car manufacturing, British rail???

 

Money has to come from somewhere.

 

And lets face it, even if someone could find the billions, the fact that the unions were still ruling the roost would have fucked us over.

 

Maybe had the unions leaders being a little bit more realistic in the 70's / early 80's then public money could have been used to give us Nissan type british factories. Unfortunately it was too geared towards wages / pensions / benefits etc.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Christmas Tree