aimaad22 3423 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 The one good thing happening because of social media now is the unprecedented level of public concern and critique of the world powers and UN over this issue. They're going to be left with a good bit of egg on their face. Cant view Youtube from here but I assume the link Gemmill posted above is appeal of support from Jon Snow? Lot of journos been doing good work. Forgot the name of that journalist from CNN who was kicked out because she had a go on twitter at the people sitting eating popcorn and cheering the rocket attacks from behind Israeli lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I understand all that, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. You can't excuse Hamas' actions because they 'only fired a few rockets' or 'killed far fewer people'. Do you know how absurd that sounds? War is never good but there's definitely two sides to this one and both are wrong in different ways It's David vs Goliath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3960 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 The thing that saddens me is their casual attitude to civilian deaths considering their own history. You would think they'd be ultra-cautious in that context. I honestly think that's a result of the religious angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Question for those equating the two sides as equally culpable. How much land has to be ceded before the Palestinians have some justification for their pathetic attempts at getting rockets through the most sophisticated defense system on the planet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 3423 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Aye, the map with the UK above help explains it too. What would you do? Just watch your land disappear? Restrict someone to the attic of their house, stop them from getting supplies in or going outside, enjoy the rest of the house meanwhile, occasionally murder one of their kids and then cry foul when they try and land a punch on your face. Its ridiculous Anyone watch that clip where a student asks Obama why we're still supporting Israel given the war crimes? Obama is stunned for a while, lots of umms and oohs for a minute or two. Dont think he expected anyone to ask him that. Then he goes onto say because Israel is a key ally he will continue to extend them support, and then a long winded answer about looking for some sort of solution. Nothing on the humanitarian crises which was the question. What really struck me about this is the shocking logic here, if someone is an ally you continue to support them no matter what they do? Including murder 100 hundreds of kids? What sort of principle is that and what sort of the message does that send out? It was one of the most shocking, brutal and disgusting things I've ever heard any elected leader say and believe me thats saying something considering the level of scum we have down here. If anyone's interested I'll try and look for the clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14528 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Hamas are terrorists, but that's because the Palestinian population who voted them in are an oppressed people. They hate Israel, but who can really blame them? If The US pulled the funding for the defence of Israel, then the Israelis would be at the negotiating table with a solid two state plan quicker than you can say "shalom". You've got to forget the past though (see South Africa and Northern Ireland for recent examples of how far that can get you) but I very much doubt if Israel is ready to do that as we stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5890 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 In other news 5 million men, women and children have been murdered in the Congo since 1996 and no one gives a fuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 13990 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I've seen this line of logic, it ends up with Facebook retards reducing everything to "how can you care about xyz when OUR BRAVE BOYS IN AFGHANISTAN" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19746 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 A lot more are dying in Syria too but that's old hat now. I visited a hospital in Northern Israel with work last year where Syrians are treated for horrific injuries. One poor kid of about 15 had his jaw blown off, losing his tongue and most of his throat. The IDF collect them from the border and they are treated, often saved, and receive the sort of care they wouldn't get at home. Some of them wake up scared and confused that what they perceive to be the enemy can help. Some stay on Israel, others return home, scared in case anyone finds out where they were treated. It was a striking humanitarian subplot of the Syrian civil war and the sort of Israeli good news story you don't end up reading much about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Aye, the map with the UK above help explains it too. What would you do? Just watch your land disappear? Restrict someone to the attic of their house, stop them from getting supplies in or going outside, enjoy the rest of the house meanwhile, occasionally murder one of their kids and then cry foul when they try and land a punch on your face. Its ridiculous Anyone watch that clip where a student asks Obama why we're still supporting Israel given the war crimes? Obama is stunned for a while, lots of umms and oohs for a minute or two. Dont think he expected anyone to ask him that. Then he goes onto say because Israel is a key ally he will continue to extend them support, and then a long winded answer about looking for some sort of solution. Nothing on the humanitarian crises which was the question. What really struck me about this is the shocking logic here, if someone is an ally you continue to support them no matter what they do? Including murder 100 hundreds of kids? What sort of principle is that and what sort of the message does that send out? It was one of the most shocking, brutal and disgusting things I've ever heard any elected leader say and believe me thats saying something considering the level of scum we have down here. If anyone's interested I'll try and look for the clip. Obama's got the blood of a few kids on his own hands and not just collateral damage. Purposely targeted. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/10/how-team-obama-justifies-the-killing-of-a-16-year-old-american/264028/ Not really in a position to condemn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 3423 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Aye I know, they still carry out drone strikes in Pakistan. Sometimes at weddings and at schools. Fact they openly come out and defiantly say its ok though is just sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5890 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I've seen this line of logic, it ends up with Facebook retards reducing everything to "how can you care about xyz when OUR BRAVE BOYS IN AFGHANISTAN" My point being there are atrocities happening all over the world. Ask yourself why the media is all over this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 13990 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 My point being there are atrocities happening all over the world. Ask yourself why the media is all over this one? I... don't need to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8951 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Before I say anything I just want it clear that I think that both sides of the conflict need to honour the ceasefires, but Israel has an obligation to be a little more tolerant. That being said, why do the Palestinian's permit Hamas to launch their attacks from residential buildings and schools? Knowing full well that Israel's response will be swift, accurate and (most likely) disproportionate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19746 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Israel's heavy handed retaliation is deplorable and the humanitarian crisis is a tragedy. But Hamas know this will be the response yet continue to fire rockets - why? What is the motivation? They know their demands won't be met. Israel isn't going to release terrorist prisoners in order to secure the ceasefire. And they broke the temporary ceasefire to allow food an aid workers in. It's almost like they don't want a resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 3423 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Israel's retaliation From my point of view what Hamas does is retaliation. Already tried explaining it. Cant really be helped if people still think Israel is somehow the victim here. Fish, why do the Israeli people allow their government to occupy and blockade land that doesnt belong to them knowing full well the effect its having on the Palestinians? I dont know what this line of reasoning is supposed to lead to. Its probably safe to say most people in the world have little say in what their governments do. Edited July 28, 2014 by aimaad22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14528 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 This may sound beyond flippant, but seeing as Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet it strikes me as fairly difficult to site a missile launcher away from women & children. The IRA built bombs in among their own people in the 1970s, but they deliberatey targetted certain groups and didnt just fire them into the Shankhill willy-nilly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19746 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Israel's retaliation From my point of view what Hamas does is retaliation. Already tried explaining it. Cant really be helped if people still think Israel is somehow the victim here. Fish, we do the Israeli people allow their government to occupy and blockade land that doesnt belong to them knowing full well the effect its having on the Palestinians? I dont know what this line of reasoning is supposed to lead to. Its probably safe to say most people in the world have little say in what their governments do. Trying to defend Hamas is a bit like trying to defend the heavy handed response from Israel. Utterly pointless. Both sides have blood on their hands. Some people are too attached to the ideology of one side or the other to take a balanced view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 3423 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Trying to defend Hamas is a bit like trying to defend the heavy handed response from Israel. Utterly pointless. Both sides have blood on their hands. Some people are too attached to the ideology of one side or the other to take a balanced view. If you've been reading the previous pages you'll know I clearly stated what they do in targeting civilians is wrong. Its just that I can understand their desperation to a certain extent. 60 years of torture. Im not sure what I would do in the same circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 how do people equating hamas and the IRA with their counterparts feel about the french resistance? keep the 'cheese eating surrender monkey' posts to a minimum, please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4949 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 If you've been reading the previous pages you'll know I clearly stated what they do in targeting civilians is wrong. Its just that I can understand their desperation to a certain extent. 60 years of torture. Im not sure what I would do in the same circumstances. I think your points are valid ones in the overall context. Most people, and arguably Hamas itself, should look at this in the current context though. In the current context, Hamas are the aggressors - even if they haven't been originally. What you're saying more or less is that Palestine will inevitably hold a grudge here. And you're right, I'm sure I'd feel much the same way. The only way I can see to resolve this though, are: 1 - Palestine and Hamas let go of the past and start looking to the future, accepting where they are and making the most of it. 2 - Israel makes the idea of attacking it so horrifying that they're too afraid to do so. I'd say Israel is going for option 2 here. As right as I think you are about Palestine's position, they're no match for Israel. Their decision to continue attacking is getting more of their people killed. As such, I think they'll be forced to take Option 1 as a result of Option 2. The sooner they get there, the sooner Israel will stop. It's not fair, it's not right, but it's the only way out of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14528 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I think your points are valid ones in the overall context. Most people, and arguably Hamas itself, should look at this in the current context though. In the current context, Hamas are the aggressors - even if they haven't been originally. What you're saying more or less is that Palestine will inevitably hold a grudge here. And you're right, I'm sure I'd feel much the same way. The only way I can see to resolve this though, are: 1 - Palestine and Hamas let go of the past and start looking to the future, accepting where they are and making the most of it. 2 - Israel makes the idea of attacking it so horrifying that they're too afraid to do so. I'd say Israel is going for option 2 here. As right as I think you are about Palestine's position, they're no match for Israel. Their decision to continue attacking is getting more of their people killed. As such, I think they'll be forced to take Option 1 as a result of Option 2. The sooner they get there, the sooner Israel will stop. It's not fair, it's not right, but it's the only way out of this. Youre options would be largely irrlevant if the US hung Israel out to dry...wouldnt need to be permenant, but just enough to get them to give a bit too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4949 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 At this point, I'm not even certain that Israel would listen to the US. They're ignoring them quite frequently now. I'm sure the US could just about best them in a straight out confrontation, but Israel is a nuclear power and ultimately there is no way that would happen. I think Russia would be a bigger concern for Israel - much less predictable than the US - but Russia won't antagonise the US by directly pressuring a key ally so... There is a third option mind, which is that Israel, probably by accident, carries out something so horrific that the world stands aghast - much like the shooting down of that plane. That might force them to back down, but not certainly. And I dread to think what that event would have to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14528 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Theyd have to listen if the finance for their defences suddenly wasnt there....highly unlikely to happen, but as far as I can see thats the only way to get them to play ball... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4949 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Is there any record of that having happened previously though? I'd like to believe you're right mind you. The reason I'm primarily sceptical about the US standing up to them is that Israel has been courting Russia recently - there was some kind or large scale agreement over gas supply that raised US eyebrows a couple of years back. I don't think Israel is beyond playing up to Russia, who, as we all know, will welcome it. I suspect the US would be concerned about pushing Israel too hard. What if Russia stepped in with the finance instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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