Dr Gloom 19735 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 it's annoying when people can't accept that there are murders on both sides - annoyingly all the ones holding all the power to make decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 3418 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yeah, THATS whats annoying about this whole episode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 3418 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/collective-punishment-gaza Three days after the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu launched the current war in Gaza, he held a press conference in Tel Aviv during which he said, in Hebrew, according to the Times of Israel, “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.” It’s worth listening carefully when Netanyahu speaks to the Israeli people. What is going on in Palestine today is not really about Hamas. It is not about rockets. It is not about “human shields” or terrorism or tunnels. It is about Israel’s permanent control over Palestinian land and Palestinian lives. That is what Netanyahu is really saying, and that is what he now admits he has “always” talked about. It is about an unswerving, decades-long Israeli policy of denying Palestine self-determination, freedom, and sovereignty. What Israel is doing in Gaza now is collective punishment. It is punishment for Gaza’s refusal to be a docile ghetto. It is punishment for the gall of Palestinians in unifying, and of Hamas and other factions in responding to Israel’s siege and its provocations with resistance, armed or otherwise, after Israel repeatedly reacted to unarmed protest with crushing force. Despite years of ceasefires and truces, the siege of Gaza has never been lifted. As Netanyahu’s own words show, however, Israel will accept nothing short of the acquiescence of Palestinians to their own subordination. It will accept only a Palestinian “state” that is stripped of all the attributes of a real state: control over security, borders, airspace, maritime limits, contiguity, and, therefore, sovereignty. The twenty-three-year charade of the “peace process” has shown that this is all Israel is offering, with the full approval of Washington. Whenever the Palestinians have resisted that pathetic fate (as any nation would), Israel has punished them for their insolence. This is not new. Punishing Palestinians for existing has a long history. It was Israel’s policy before Hamas and its rudimentary rockets were Israel’s boogeyman of the moment, and before Israel turned Gaza into an open-air prison, punching bag, and weapons laboratory. In 1948, Israel killed thousands of innocents, and terrorized and displaced hundreds of thousands more, in the name of creating a Jewish-majority state in a land that was then sixty-five per cent Arab. In 1967, it displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians again, occupying territory that it still largely controls, forty-seven years later. In 1982, in a quest to expel the Palestine Liberation Organization and extinguish Palestinian nationalism, Israel invaded Lebanon, killing seventeen thousand people, mostly civilians. Since the late nineteen-eighties, when Palestinians under occupation rose up, mostly by throwing stones and staging general strikes, Israel has arrested tens of thousands of Palestinians: over seven hundred and fifty thousand people have spent time in Israeli prisons since 1967, a number that amounts to forty per cent of the adult male population today. They have emerged with accounts of torture, which are substantiated by human-rights groups like B’tselem. During the second intifada, which began in 2000, Israel reinvaded the West Bank (it had never fully left). The occupation and colonization of Palestinian land continued unabated throughout the “peace process” of the nineteen-nineties, and continues to this day. And yet, in America, the discussion ignores this crucial, constantly oppressive context, and is instead too often limited to Israeli “self-defense” and the Palestinians’ supposed responsibility for their own suffering. In the past seven or more years, Israel has besieged, tormented, and regularly attacked the Gaza Strip. The pretexts change: they elected Hamas; they refused to be docile; they refused to recognize Israel; they fired rockets; they built tunnels to circumvent the siege; and on and on. But each pretext is a red herring, because the truth of ghettos—what happens when you imprison 1.8 million people in a hundred and forty square miles, about a third of the area of New York City, with no control of borders, almost no access to the sea for fishermen (three out of the twenty kilometres allowed by the Oslo accords), no real way in or out, and with drones buzzing overhead night and day—is that, eventually, the ghetto will fight back. It was true in Soweto and Belfast, and it is true in Gaza. We might not like Hamas or some of its methods, but that is not the same as accepting the proposition that Palestinians should supinely accept the denial of their right to exist as a free people in their ancestral homeland. This is precisely why the United States’ support of current Israeli policy is folly. Peace was achieved in Northern Ireland and in South Africa because the United States and the world realized that they had to put pressure on the stronger party, holding it accountable and ending its impunity. Northern Ireland and South Africa are far from perfect examples, but it is worth remembering that, to achieve a just outcome, it was necessary for the United States to deal with groups like the Irish Republican Army and the African National Congress, which engaged in guerrilla war and even terrorism. That was the only way to embark on a road toward true peace and reconciliation. The case of Palestine is not fundamentally different. Instead, the United States puts its thumb on the scales in favor of the stronger party. In this surreal, upside-down vision of the world, it almost seems as if it is the Israelis who are occupied by the Palestinians, and not the other way around. In this skewed universe, the inmates of an open-air prison are besieging a nuclear-armed power with one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world. If we are to move away from this unreality, the U.S. must either reverse its policies or abandon its claim of being an “honest broker.” If the U.S. government wants to fund and arm Israel and parrot its talking points that fly in the face of reason and international law, so be it. But it should not claim the moral high ground and intone solemnly about peace. And it should certainly not insult Palestinians by saying that it cares about them or their children, who are dying in Gaza today. 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Dr Gloom 19735 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yeah, THATS whats annoying about this whole episode yeah, it's a sensitive story and everyone has an opinion but people that can't take a balanced view are pretty tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26167 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 In fairness, Dr. G, you've always come across as a bit pro-Israeli. I can't be arsed looking back through your posts, it's just the impression that I got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 3418 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Im not going to look for a 'balanced view' just for the heck of it and when there really isnt one. Its genocide. Ethnic cleansing. Call it what you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Parky, just to sate my curiosity - say Hamas got those tunnels to work. What would they do with them? Inflict as much damage on Israel as possible with their home made arsenal (basic short range rockets) Ak47's and RPG style stuff. To exact revenge for the continued blockade and suffering of Palestinians. The usual war goals. But it isn't really a war at all it's basically a very small militia type resistance against one of the most sophisticated military in the world. Israel has most of the latest generation arms from America. Hezbollah in Lebanon is much more sophisticated and has exacted heavy loss of Israeli armour in past conflicts, Hamas aren't in that league. It's fair to say that civilians seem to be fair game for both sides, but Israel has the arsenal to inflict much more significant civilian casualties. No matter how you dress it up war is war. Western media have a schoolboy approach to war ie looking for rights and wrongs and who the 'good guys' are...Simply put that is fodder and framing for the general public...Real conflict is carnage as witnessed all over Africa and the middle east over the last few decades. In African conflicts 300,000 can be notched up in a matter of weeks along with unimaginable cruelty and war crimes but it's of no interest to our media who flirt with it only from time to time. Compared to some of that African stuff what is happening in Palestine is a cakewalk. Edited July 31, 2014 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 3418 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 It really baffles me as to how anyone who knows everything thats been happening since 1948 can still find a 'balanced view' here. I've learnt though that these people usually ignore that history and insist on pretending that Israeli aggression began when Hamas suddenly developed an inexplicable liking for rocket launching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAustin 0 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 aimaad, the problem is, if the boot was on the other foot, Hamas would be doing the same, this has been the way for thousands of years. Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people. Fuck me the whole thing is about your chosen way to worship a deity which may or may not exist. Allah or Jehova, explain the difference? Judean Peoples Front or The Peoples Front of Judea. Sit down have a cup of tea and a hookah pipe and celebrate your differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19735 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 In fairness, Dr. G, you've always come across as a bit pro-Israeli. I can't be arsed looking back through your posts, it's just the impression that I got. i think as a sovereign state, israel has the right to defend itself. but i think the actions taken by netanyahu are an absolute disgrace. inexcusable. just as firing rockets on civilian targets is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19735 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 It really baffles me as to how anyone who knows everything thats been happening since 1948 can still find a 'balanced view' here. I've learnt though that these people usually ignore that history and insist on pretending that Israeli aggression began when Hamas suddenly developed an inexplicable liking for rocket launching. you can't blame israel for the fact that it exists. blme the uk the un and the yanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 you can't blame israel for the fact that it exists. blme the uk the un and the yanks for that. We can blame them for their horrendous Eurovision entries tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 13959 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 We can blame them for their horrendous Eurovision entries tho. Although ironically they tend to be far more progressive than the country's politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3960 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 you can't blame israel for the fact that it exists. blme the uk the un and the yanks for that. So they didn't demand it or indeed wage a terrorist campaign to influence its creation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Although ironically they tend to be far more progressive than the country's politics Less Boom bang a bang... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4949 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 It really baffles me as to how anyone who knows everything thats been happening since 1948 can still find a 'balanced view' here. I've learnt though that these people usually ignore that history and insist on pretending that Israeli aggression began when Hamas suddenly developed an inexplicable liking for rocket launching. I'm aware of the history, but how does that help us now? How are we supposed to interpret history in order to save people's lives here? The history is irrelevant in terms of finding a solution. As I said earlier, either the solution is that both sides back down and restore normalised diplomatic relations, along with working towards a better future...or Israel just blows the almighty fuck out of anything and everything on the wrong side of the wall until there's nothing left to have diplomatic relations with. Much as it doesn't right the wrongs of the past, Hamas has a responsibility to its people now, not 60 or 70 years ago. They need to surrender for their own people's sake. Saying that doesn't make me pro-Israel, it makes me pro human life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm aware of the history, but how does that help us now? How are we supposed to interpret history in order to save people's lives here? The history is irrelevant in terms of finding a solution. As I said earlier, either the solution is that both sides back down and restore normalised diplomatic relations, along with working towards a better future...or Israel just blows the almighty fuck out of anything and everything on the wrong side of the wall until there's nothing left to have diplomatic relations with. Much as it doesn't right the wrongs of the past, Hamas has a responsibility to its people now, not 60 or 70 years ago. They need to surrender for their own people's sake. Saying that doesn't make me pro-Israel, it makes me pro human life. Historically change only happens when the superior force wants it. Israel has to want it, Palestine can want it all it likes but nothing will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 13959 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Less Boom bang a bang... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19735 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 So they didn't demand it or indeed wage a terrorist campaign to influence its creation? the wars came after it was declared a state, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19735 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Historically change only happens when the superior force wants it. Israel has to want it, Palestine can want it all it likes but nothing will happen. here lies the big problem, and where the leadership has to come from obama and netanyahu. unlikely as obama has doesn't want his fingers burned in the middle east, because of what happened to his predecessors. the less said about netanyahu and the likud party, the better. a two state solution will never happen as long as he's in power. it won't happen as long as hamas is in power either though. their main mission is to wipe israel off the map. how do you negotiate with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8947 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Didn't Bartlett sort this out years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19735 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Much as it doesn't right the wrongs of the past, Hamas has a responsibility to its people now, not 60 or 70 years ago. They need to surrender for their own people's sake. Saying that doesn't make me pro-Israel, it makes me pro human life. i think that's right. not trying to excuse israel's actions. netanyahu has blood on his hands, but so does hamas. to suggest otherwise is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 here lies the big problem, and where the leadership has to come from obama and netanyahu. unlikely as obama has doesn't want his fingers burned in the middle east, because of what happened to his predecessors. the less said about netanyahu and the likud party, the better. a two state solution will never happen as long as he's in power. it won't happen as long as hamas is in power either though. their main mission is to wipe israel off the map. how do you negotiate with that? Well balanced analysis. Agree with most of that, but you must admit the Hamas rhetoric is nonsense. It has as much chance of wiping Israel as CSD has of playing a decent round of golf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4949 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Historically change only happens when the superior force wants it. Israel has to want it, Palestine can want it all it likes but nothing will happen. What has disturbed me in particular, is that 95% of Israelis back the government's action. This means that Netanyu isn't the problem, he's actually doing exactly what he was elected for. The problem is the way Israel views Palestine, and if you explored that, I'm certain you would see that the average Israeli would tell you this was necessary because Hamas wants to eradicate them. If Hamas stops with that, surely the situation can only improve? Hamas are at the very least providing Israel with every excuse it needs to carry out its aggression - this makes them irresponsible with the lives of their people. How many lives is that history worth, I wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 i think that's right. not trying to excuse israel's actions. netanyahu has blood on his hands, but so does hamas. to suggest otherwise is nonsense. Agree with the broad sentiment, however it's extremely naive. A passive Palestine will not encourage Israel to do anything but continue to land grab and exert food and water poverty on its neighbours. Only sanctions and America cutting off the arms and aid will ever have any effect on Israel imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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