to occupy or not?

[Happy Face 29]

not the responsibility of the 99% to provide a roadmap. Up to the elected leaders to change the system to placate them.

 

That's pie in the sky and you know it.

 

Most of them are either flagrant careerists or in the pocket of big business and various 'comittees'.

 

This is why the banned protesting outside parliament a few years ago.

 

At least they're taking action, what alternative do you propose? I know you agree with the stance, if not the method.

[Park Life 70]

not the responsibility of the 99% to provide a roadmap. Up to the elected leaders to change the system to placate them.

 

That's pie in the sky and you know it.

 

Most of them are either flagrant careerists or in the pocket of big business and various 'comittees'.

 

This is why the banned protesting outside parliament a few years ago.

 

At least they're taking action, what alternative do you propose? I know you agree with the stance, if not the method.

 

We both agree broadly on most politics so it ain't about that.

 

It's not about protesting either which is always good in any circumstance. People engaging with the monolith creates a feedback loop and develops their understanding of power in all it's guises and how it affects their lives - their ideals.

 

The state (across most of Europe) has gone too far and aligned itself with the money men primarily through fear that they might lose priveledges/the people might glimpse behind the curtain and so on...For me the curtain has a gap now which the state is trying to close but can't people have seen through the negligence and greed by way of the various money crisis and visionless rolling from side to side of a beleagured late Capitalism. I think the demo's will increase, I think there are major problems coming for Europe as a whole as the German money chain is now at breaking point reg bailouts and so on...Once the German banks and Govt confidence is breached all hell will break lose cause there really is no other country that can bridge the financial cravass.

 

IMO the real pain that society at large will feel hasn't even started, because the relationship between good governance/legistlation/de-regulation and the fifty or so multinationals is broken. States are frantically looking around for a 'new deal' cause the wolves are in the chicken coup and they don't really like to leave once they are in...It really started in the 80's...

 

People will have to do it. Govt as we know it is finished as a body that might manage expectations and keep 'big money' in check.

 

The people will have no choice but increase pressure, it isn't even really a conscious descision...You wake up one morning and find the world that you beiieved in was fake.

 

P

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

You cannot condense total rejection of the two party, corporate financed, right leaning, oligarchic plutocracy into a single soundbite to market yourself. You cannot participate in a curropt democracy and argue against it.

 

You've just done it lad. I think it's been an impressive display of civil disobedience. Your second sentence there reminds me of this:

 

[ewerk 26173]

People will have to do it. Govt as we know it is finished as a body that might manage expectations and keep 'big money' in check.

 

Which people are going to keep them in check? The 'people' have no fucking idea what is required to keep them in check, the government isn't much better.

 

The bodies who may have a reasonable understanding of the system, BoE/FSA, cannot act unilaterally, it has to be done with the support of all major financial regulators around the world to avoid a race to the bottom.

[Park Life 70]

Watch Japan.

[peasepud 59]

tell you what, Occupy newcastle is fucking shite isnt it? 4 tents and about 6 hippies.

 

Should be fun times at 11 o'clock when all the radgies are kicking out the Bigg Market

[Park Life 70]

Warchovia Bank is a classic example of how bad the system is...Found to have washed 378bilion of Mexican drug cartel money ends up being fined 160m..

 

No criminal charges brought against any of them.

 

Bank of America - Trade jumping and look back fraud...Stole 400billion from US pension funds by getting in the way of their investments and jumping the next day market making...(No consequences)..

 

and the list goes on and on and on...

 

JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs betting against their own investors/investments...Shorting and hedging against porfolio's THEY THEMSELVES SOLD KNOWING THEY WERE DOGSHIT..

 

On NO I talked about the coming banking wars way back in 2007...The investment banks and hedge fund managers are like a giant locust and soverign states need to destroy their illegal and fraudulent practices.

 

General Electric hasn't paid any real taxes in America for 5 years or summink...

 

A war is coming and it ain't gonna be pretty like last time.

 

Think it will start in Japan where the locals own a vast chunk of their own Govt debt...All that will be written down to zero when japan defaults and it will. Japs don't take kindly to this kind of shit...Expect civil war of some kind and a completely tanked economy.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Park Life

[tooner 243]

They need to bring down the banks, the stock exchange etc. to be really effective. However, that would probably involve violence so most will stop short of that. Personally, I'd get the state to take all the assets of those responsible for the crash, the Fred Goodwin types, ban all companies that hide their money from fair taxes abroad (so no U2 gigs then) and then nationalise water, electricity and gas suppliers.

 

As for the occupy movement, it needs more than 'stock brokers are wankers', it needs an ideology and a solution to be effective.

 

agreed, i think the ideology is there but it needs someone to lead with solutions to the problems that have been identified. saw a quote from some anarchist philosophy major i know about the problem that getting such a leader creates its own problems.....

 

"As soon as a theory is enmeshed in a particular point, we realise that it will never possess the slightest practical importance unless it can erupt in a totally different area. This is why the notion of reform is so stupid and hypocritical. Either reforms are designed by people who claim to be representative, who make a profession of speaking for others, and they lead to a division of power, to ...a distribution of this new power which is consequently increased by a double repression; or they arise from the complaints and demands of those concerned. This latter instance is no longer a reform but revolutionary action that questions (expressing the full force of its partiality) the totality of power and the hierarchy that maintains it." -Deleuze

 

while i can see the point that is being made here, i don't think i support an anarchistic state model.

 

Protest isn't anarchic is it? It's democracy in action. The people demanding representation from elected leaders more interested in selling their idesology to the highest bidder with corporate personhood.

 

peaceful protest is democracy in action for sure, and lends credence and weight to the protesters arguments. once (if) protests turn violent the state(s) will clamp down, problem i see is the coming winter, it will make the protesters nervous and may inject a hint of mayhem. unfortunately this plays into the hands of the state b/c they will just squash the protest.

[Happy Face 29]

if there's a Kent state moment, then it will only strengthen the protesters. All the authorities can do is watch and hope the protesters blink first.

[Matt 0]

They need to bring down the banks, the stock exchange etc. to be really effective. However, that would probably involve violence so most will stop short of that.

 

What do you mean, bring them down? Make them close the doors for business? I think we'd be in a bad state if overnight all the cash machines in the UK were turned off and businesses couldn't process payments. How do you bring down a stock exchange? It's just a building. This protest will do nothing to alter the trade in securities that go on at the LSE. This place has been a terrorist target for decades- they'll have backup plans on backup plans. Most London banks have entire trading floors and data centres dotted around outer London so that they can seamlessly move office with minimal disruption to operations. They aren't logo-cladded towers either- usually a nondescript 60s office block in a run-down part of town. On top of this, most of the trade can be sent elsewhere.

 

Arguing against 'corporate greed' is bollocks because it can't be defined. What one person claims to be greed is another person's fair return on investment. I'd be far more impressed if they actually targeted the monetary system which is essentially the source of much of the ongoing misery. Unsustainable money creation through the banking system and shadow banking system led to a fundamental breakdown- now we are witnessing money destruction through forced recapitalisation of regulated institutions (though no talk of what to do of the shadow banking system). Many arguments to date re-inforce the view that the monetary system is a zero-sum game and that if one set of people is suffering, another must be benefiting- that's not the case. This is the ultimate lose-lose.

[Happy Face 29]

 

Peaceful protesters sat with their heads down and their arms in their laps maced in the face

 

You'd think it would be enought to tip freedom loving yanks over the edge, but if they embrace the assassination of fellow citizens without trial, this will be small tatties.

[Dr Gloom 19736]

i've seen them at st pauls. bunch of crusties basically. the sort you see on ther may day protests. i doubt any of them had jobs even before the financial crisis hit. i've talked to a range of the protestors and there's no real unified or coherent message.

[Happy Face 29]

i've seen them at st pauls. bunch of crusties basically. the sort you see on ther may day protests. i doubt any of them had jobs even before the financial crisis hit. i've talked to a range of the protestors and there's no real unified or coherent message.

 

According to a survey of Zuccotti Park protesters by the Baruch College School of Public Affairs published on October 19, of 1,619 web respondents, 1/3 were older than 35, half were employed full-time, 13% were unemployed and 13% earned over $75,000.

 

http://www.fastcompany.com/1789018/occupy-wall-street-demographics-statistics

[Dr Gloom 19736]

i've seen them at st pauls. bunch of crusties basically. the sort you see on ther may day protests. i doubt any of them had jobs even before the financial crisis hit. i've talked to a range of the protestors and there's no real unified or coherent message.

 

According to a survey of Zuccotti Park protesters by the Baruch College School of Public Affairs published on October 19, of 1,619 web respondents, 1/3 were older than 35, half were employed full-time, 13% were unemployed and 13% earned over $75,000.

 

http://www.fastcompa...hics-statistics

 

there's no way that survey is based on the scruffs sat outside st pauls.

[Happy Face 29]

i've seen them at st pauls. bunch of crusties basically. the sort you see on ther may day protests. i doubt any of them had jobs even before the financial crisis hit. i've talked to a range of the protestors and there's no real unified or coherent message.

 

According to a survey of Zuccotti Park protesters by the Baruch College School of Public Affairs published on October 19, of 1,619 web respondents, 1/3 were older than 35, half were employed full-time, 13% were unemployed and 13% earned over $75,000.

 

http://www.fastcompa...hics-statistics

 

there's no way that survey is based on the scruffs sat outside st pauls.

 

No, it's Zuccotti, but learned economists like Paul Krugman, Joseph Stiglitz, Jeff Madrick, Ravi Batra and Richard Wolff approve the demonstrations and their sentiment, not just crusties.

[Dr Gloom 19736]

The problem with the st Paul's lot is the lack of a coherent voice. It's a bit like the riots back in the summer. Protest agaInst the system with little thought given to what is wrong or how it might be fixed. We're talking in the main about smelly traveller types with dreadlocks. Not as bad a crowd as the chav scum that looted the shops in their local communities but that there are similarities

[Happy Face 29]

Not their job though. Think it's pretty clear they want more equal distribution of income, bank reform, and a reduction of the influence of corporations on politics. How that is achieved is down to individuals that seek power.

[Dr Gloom 19736]

This crowd would be protesting and not working whatever the state of the economy though is my point

[Happy Face 29]

The fact they weren't protesting 2 years ago, and the fact that (as I've already pointed out) half of them are in full time employment suggests not in my view.

 

Think it's pretty clear you've made your mind up about them though. I only bumped the thread because the pepper spraying is a disgrace, whether the peaceful protesters are employed, informed, organised, on message or not.

[Happy Face 29]

[ewerk 26173]

Where are these full time employed finding the time to protest?

 

I'm happy to take an ill-informed view that these are socialist, idealist, ignorant, middle class cunts who want to protest against the system but with no answers to the problems faced.

[Matt 0]

Not their job though. Think it's pretty clear they want more equal distribution of income, bank reform, and a reduction of the influence of corporations on politics. How that is achieved is down to individuals that seek power.

 

And what if no-one seeking power agrees with them?

 

We have a nifty system call elections, if these views represent 99% of the population then fielding candidates to further their cause shouldn't be too difficult and the outcome of the election a foregone conclusion.

 

Saying 'it's up to politicians to sort out' is hardly going to break the stranglehold of this 1% elite, is it?

[Dr Gloom 19736]

The fact they weren't protesting 2 years ago, and the fact that (as I've already pointed out) half of them are in full time employment suggests not in my view.

 

Think it's pretty clear you've made your mind up about them though. I only bumped the thread because the pepper spraying is a disgrace, whether the peaceful protesters are employed, informed, organised, on message or not.

 

If we're talking the st Paul's lot, that clearly isn't the case. I've actually been down there and interviewed them mate. These are not currently employed - or arguably employable - people.

 

I just dont see how a bunch of crusties camped in tents in a church square with no united voice or message will change anything. Unless they mobilise and form a political movement they're unlikely to be viewed as anything except an eye sore. The lack of a coherent political message or a clear understanding of the issues at hand will almost certainly prevent that happening.

 

That said, I think the US police actions against the occupy movement there was a disgrace. You don't often see that level of police brutality here.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Dr Gloom

[Walliver 0]

http://imgur.com/a/WTPSU

 

(http://i.minus.com/isHRFTW2OZWed.png if anyone else wants it)

[Happy Face 29]

Not their job though. Think it's pretty clear they want more equal distribution of income, bank reform, and a reduction of the influence of corporations on politics. How that is achieved is down to individuals that seek power.

 

And what if no-one seeking power agrees with them?

 

We have a nifty system call elections, if these views represent 99% of the population then fielding candidates to further their cause shouldn't be too difficult and the outcome of the election a foregone conclusion.

 

Saying 'it's up to politicians to sort out' is hardly going to break the stranglehold of this 1% elite, is it?

 

That's the problem exactly. Elections offer only the illusion of choice. It's very difficult to get someone representing the 99% into the White House when the self-interested 1% have the media, government and wall street sewn up, breaking that stranglehold with an ill-informed electorate is nigh on impossible, especially if you engage in the democratic process that has been so polluted by money and interest groups.