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I agree with Jose Mourinho who said "The great lie is that managres need time. A good manager should be able to change things straight away. That is what we do we manage what we have"

73779[/snapback]

Going by that reckoning Ferguson would have been sacked by Man Utd early in his career, Morinho just likes to heap pressure on his rivals in my opinion. If he doesn't win the Champions League with Chelsea this season or next (which I'm sure is what Abramovich wants) then no doubt he'll be saying he wants time. Regarding Souness, I'm not saying give him more time as he was never the right man for the job, rather that he hasn't had time in my view.

73791[/snapback]

 

the best 2 managers at Newcastle in recent times, Keegan and Robson.

 

From the start, they brought an obvious improvement and came across as knowing what they were doing

73808[/snapback]

 

So I imagined 18 months of utter shite (disguised by a cup run) under Bobby?

 

There was no further sign of any improvement until Bellamy/Robert signed (see I can give praise to those two when rightful)

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Leazes, FWIW I agree with you on Allardyce and his open-mindedness with regards to training methods and treatment of injuries etc.  I'm just unsure whether he'll ever be a "big-time" manager.  I am convinced though that he would be an improvement on the current situation, but we should be looking for more than that really.

73767[/snapback]

 

So what's your stance now Gemmill, out of interest? Are you finally going to admit you were wrong in your assertion that Souness should be given a minimum of 2 years to prove himself, regardless of results and performances on the field, and his PR off it? Can we finally expect an "I was wrong" Gemmill exclusive?

73771[/snapback]

 

Nope. I think that's about how long a manager needs tbh. I've decided a bit early though that I've seen enough and that he clearly doesn't have what it takes. Just not as early as the day he arrived at the club, which was as much time as you were prepared to afford him.

73782[/snapback]

 

If Shepherd appoints Peter Reid, how much time would you afford him?

73790[/snapback]

 

The man who engineered Sunderland's demise? Job for life tbh.

73793[/snapback]

 

You know what I'm getting at, being facetious changes nothing.

 

For the record Gemmill, I would have given Souness time despite his appalling pedigree, but practically from day one the man showed what an idiot he is. You just can't accept that I was right about him and you were wrong.

73805[/snapback]

 

Being facetious as in asking silly questions about Peter Reid you mean? :)

 

I said that once the bloke is appointed he needs time to prove himself. You called for his head from the minute he was appointed, and before he'd even been in charge of a game. Sorry, but I think I'm sounding like the more level-headed one here tbh. I dread to think what will happen if we appoint another manager you don't like the look of. ;)

 

Ok, he's proven that he isn't good enough (using the time that I said he deserved - that's all I said btw, no matter how much you want to make out that I painted him as our messiah). That doesn't make you right and me wrong.

73820[/snapback]

 

gem, he proved himself at all his previous clubs - you wouldn't support buying a shit player, so why a shit manager ? The question about monkey is relevant, if we appointed him, would you give him time or not ?

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gem, he proved himself at all his previous clubs - you wouldn't support buying a shit player, so why a shit manager ? The question about monkey is relevant, if we appointed him, would you give him time or not ?

73824[/snapback]

 

Relevant in the sense that it would NEVER EVER happen thereby rendering it irrelevant?

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I agree with Jose Mourinho who said "The great lie is that managres need time. A good manager should be able to change things straight away. That is what we do we manage what we have"

73779[/snapback]

Going by that reckoning Ferguson would have been sacked by Man Utd early in his career, Morinho just likes to heap pressure on his rivals in my opinion. If he doesn't win the Champions League with Chelsea this season or next (which I'm sure is what Abramovich wants) then no doubt he'll be saying he wants time. Regarding Souness, I'm not saying give him more time as he was never the right man for the job, rather that he hasn't had time in my view.

73791[/snapback]

 

the best 2 managers at Newcastle in recent times, Keegan and Robson.

 

From the start, they brought an obvious improvement and came across as knowing what they were doing

73808[/snapback]

 

So I imagined 18 months of utter shite (disguised by a cup run) under Bobby?

 

There was no further sign of any improvement until Bellamy/Robert signed (see I can give praise to those two when rightful)

73822[/snapback]

Quite correct tbh.

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if not fat sam then it'll probably be Bruce. We're gonna save him from the sack just like when we did it with Souness. :rolleyes:

73699[/snapback]

 

Fuck if the fat man wants to save someone from the sack he should at least offer Taggard a job!

 

At the moment the following managers are unemployed:

 

Deschamps

Hitzfield

O'Neil

Ranieri

 

And those are just off the top off my head. Who was the manager that went to Porto last season and only lasted a month? He was good if I remember but didn't get on with the board their.

73705[/snapback]

 

To be fair, we can all reel off unrealistic or just plain crap (Ranieri) candidates off the top of our heads. :razz:

73735[/snapback]

If you weren't so latently :) Gemmill your opinon would actually be worth something.

Since the initial speculation of SBR's sacking I've be championing for Deschamps as Newcastle manager.

As for the unrealistic comment, why shouldn't we expect Shepherd to employ a world class manager? Or are you happy for the club to continue in mid-table existance?

On Ranieri, if you look at his record pre the russian revolution it was quite good.

He did great things with Valencia the 1st time and if you think about the fact Chelsea were challenging us for 4th/5th around 2001/02/03 and yet they were on the brink of bankruptcy. So yeah he's real crap just like your man lover :razz:

73737[/snapback]

 

Ranieri was a gibbering idiot in his time at Chelsea. FACT!

 

And so what if you've been championing Deschamps for years? Does that stand us in better stead of attracting him like, cos some Aussie midget with ginger dreads has been posting about him on a message board? :icon_lol:

 

And funnily enough I'd like a world class manager to get the job too. I just don't think we've got much hope of attracting one, hence I'm not posting lists of unrealistic candidates like you. :gay:

73738[/snapback]

 

I might be a midget in your larger than average world Mr Greggs but I've told you before the ginger dreads are no longer :razz:

Look I just posted a list of available world class managers and I'm always amazed that Deschamps is never mentioned.

Gemmill, Newcastle's a bit like you, all it takes is a little courage, just like when you applied for that job that was a bit better than chief french fries fryer. Now you get the opportunity to add up some numbers for a living. ;)

73740[/snapback]

 

One again the term "world class" is being abused..

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Leazes, FWIW I agree with you on Allardyce and his open-mindedness with regards to training methods and treatment of injuries etc.  I'm just unsure whether he'll ever be a "big-time" manager.  I am convinced though that he would be an improvement on the current situation, but we should be looking for more than that really.

73767[/snapback]

 

So what's your stance now Gemmill, out of interest? Are you finally going to admit you were wrong in your assertion that Souness should be given a minimum of 2 years to prove himself, regardless of results and performances on the field, and his PR off it? Can we finally expect an "I was wrong" Gemmill exclusive?

73771[/snapback]

 

Nope. I think that's about how long a manager needs tbh. I've decided a bit early though that I've seen enough and that he clearly doesn't have what it takes. Just not as early as the day he arrived at the club, which was as much time as you were prepared to afford him.

73782[/snapback]

 

If Shepherd appoints Peter Reid, how much time would you afford him?

73790[/snapback]

 

The man who engineered Sunderland's demise? Job for life tbh.

73793[/snapback]

 

You know what I'm getting at, being facetious changes nothing.

 

For the record Gemmill, I would have given Souness time despite his appalling pedigree, but practically from day one the man showed what an idiot he is. You just can't accept that I was right about him and you were wrong.

73805[/snapback]

 

Being facetious as in asking silly questions about Peter Reid you mean? :)

 

I said that once the bloke is appointed he needs time to prove himself. You called for his head from the minute he was appointed, and before he'd even been in charge of a game. Sorry, but I think I'm sounding like the more level-headed one here tbh. I dread to think what will happen if we appoint another manager you don't like the look of. ;)

 

Ok, he's proven that he isn't good enough (using the time that I said he deserved - that's all I said btw, no matter how much you want to make out that I painted him as our messiah). That doesn't make you right and me wrong.

73820[/snapback]

 

Actually, I never "called for his head" straight away as you put it, I think I was probably in favour of him being sacked after Christmas, during the Bellamy fiasco, which imo showed his complete lack of man-management skills to go along with his belief that tactics don't matter etc, etc, etc.....

 

The point is I predicted what a disaster he would be, and you didn't. Whilst you never said he would be the next messiah, I do recall you saying he would be good for us - which has patently been proven wrong.

 

Look, believe it or not, I'm not interested in petty points scoring now; I just think it would be nice if for once out of your 10000 odd posts on this and other similar message boards you could hold up your hands and say you were wrong about Souness, that's all.

 

And for the record, if we do appoint someone I don't approve of, I'll stick my head out and say it. There's a big difference between that and calling for his head before he's played a game though.

Edited by Renton
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I agree with Jose Mourinho who said "The great lie is that managres need time. A good manager should be able to change things straight away. That is what we do we manage what we have"

73779[/snapback]

Going by that reckoning Ferguson would have been sacked by Man Utd early in his career, Morinho just likes to heap pressure on his rivals in my opinion. If he doesn't win the Champions League with Chelsea this season or next (which I'm sure is what Abramovich wants) then no doubt he'll be saying he wants time. Regarding Souness, I'm not saying give him more time as he was never the right man for the job, rather that he hasn't had time in my view.

73791[/snapback]

 

the best 2 managers at Newcastle in recent times, Keegan and Robson.

 

From the start, they brought an obvious improvement and came across as knowing what they were doing

73808[/snapback]

 

So I imagined 18 months of utter shite (disguised by a cup run) under Bobby?

 

There was no further sign of any improvement until Bellamy/Robert signed (see I can give praise to those two when rightful)

73822[/snapback]

 

Wweeeelllllll........he DID come in and restored morale, climbing from bottom to halfway in the league first season ...

 

Which is precisely the position we would have been in if fuckwit hadn't got lucky with his 16m get out of jail card.......

 

You are right we treaded water for that 18 months, much the same as we did under Arthur Cox until he bought Keegan. In both these cases you could see they knew what they were doing though, on a tight budget ..... Souness hasn't had that, he instantly fell out with players [as predicted], bombed down the league and has had lots of dosh, completely different

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I agree with Jose Mourinho who said "The great lie is that managres need time. A good manager should be able to change things straight away. That is what we do we manage what we have"

73779[/snapback]

Going by that reckoning Ferguson would have been sacked by Man Utd early in his career, Morinho just likes to heap pressure on his rivals in my opinion. If he doesn't win the Champions League with Chelsea this season or next (which I'm sure is what Abramovich wants) then no doubt he'll be saying he wants time. Regarding Souness, I'm not saying give him more time as he was never the right man for the job, rather that he hasn't had time in my view.

73791[/snapback]

 

the best 2 managers at Newcastle in recent times, Keegan and Robson.

 

From the start, they brought an obvious improvement and came across as knowing what they were doing

73808[/snapback]

 

So I imagined 18 months of utter shite (disguised by a cup run) under Bobby?

 

There was no further sign of any improvement until Bellamy/Robert signed (see I can give praise to those two when rightful)

73822[/snapback]

Quite correct tbh.

73827[/snapback]

 

Aye, sure it is. We had 1 point from 7 under Gullit, and we were about to lose arguably our greatest player ever and our best midfielder of recent times, and were in real danger of relegation. The improvement in form was immediate and amazing imo, and we were very unlucky not to win the cup that year, as anyone who was at Wembley will know (with Villa waiting for us in the final).

 

You seriously want to compare that situation with Souness's do you?

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Look, we're all agreed now that Souness should go, which is the important thing. The debate now is; wait for him to be sacked? Or wait behind a grassy knoll in Leazes Park?

73833[/snapback]

 

Bollocks to a grassy knoll. Lets do it democratically. One man one rock! Hopefully we can get more than 30% of the nation to participate in this though.

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I agree with Jose Mourinho who said "The great lie is that managres need time. A good manager should be able to change things straight away. That is what we do we manage what we have"

73779[/snapback]

Going by that reckoning Ferguson would have been sacked by Man Utd early in his career, Morinho just likes to heap pressure on his rivals in my opinion. If he doesn't win the Champions League with Chelsea this season or next (which I'm sure is what Abramovich wants) then no doubt he'll be saying he wants time. Regarding Souness, I'm not saying give him more time as he was never the right man for the job, rather that he hasn't had time in my view.

73791[/snapback]

 

the best 2 managers at Newcastle in recent times, Keegan and Robson.

 

From the start, they brought an obvious improvement and came across as knowing what they were doing

73808[/snapback]

 

So I imagined 18 months of utter shite (disguised by a cup run) under Bobby?

 

There was no further sign of any improvement until Bellamy/Robert signed (see I can give praise to those two when rightful)

73822[/snapback]

Quite correct tbh.

73827[/snapback]

 

Yep, but with different expectations. Robson took over a club that had fallen back into meciocrity and the senior playing staff alienated by the former manager. That was the position Robson was taking over from. After messing a bit around by the signings of Cordone, Bassedas et al Robson got it right by just two signings who made a difference.

Souness took over a club that had established itself in the upper half of the table. Things had gone stale under Robson and only few were disputing the fact that a change in managment was needed. But even though the trouble in the dressing room needed to be addressed it was thought that Robson's successor would take over a good squad (and himself said so). This was the position Souness was taking over from. But he didn't only in the slightest maintain Newcastle's position but took the club down into mediocrity again. That will most likely be two seasons in a row Newcastle miss out on Europe. This has a huge affect on finances and reputation.

 

Robson might not have worked miracles right from the start, but he certainly didn't make things worse - in contrast to the current tosser still in charge.

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Wweeeelllllll........he DID come in and restored morale, climbing from bottom to halfway in the league first season ...

 

Which is precisely the position we would have been in if fuckwit hadn't got lucky with his 16m get out of jail card.......

 

You are right we treaded water for that 18 months, much the same as we did under Arthur Cox until he bought Keegan. In both these cases you could see they knew what they were doing though, on a tight budget ..... Souness hasn't had that, he instantly fell out with players [as predicted], bombed down the league and has had lots of dosh, completely different

73831[/snapback]

 

I agree with the gist of your reply (Especially on morale) but he did wheel and deal a bit getting rid of Goma for example who I thought was a good player.

 

Playing Devil's advocate he made no attempt to get on with/improve the situation of Marcelino - not a popular view I know but when you consider how he fell out with Nobby and Elliot to an extent later on I'd say to try and make out that Bobby was the perfect opposite to Souness is just a tad biased.

 

On a similar note see Keegan with Venison/Clark/Cole.

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I agree with Jose Mourinho who said "The great lie is that managres need time. A good manager should be able to change things straight away. That is what we do we manage what we have"

73779[/snapback]

Going by that reckoning Ferguson would have been sacked by Man Utd early in his career, Morinho just likes to heap pressure on his rivals in my opinion. If he doesn't win the Champions League with Chelsea this season or next (which I'm sure is what Abramovich wants) then no doubt he'll be saying he wants time. Regarding Souness, I'm not saying give him more time as he was never the right man for the job, rather that he hasn't had time in my view.

73791[/snapback]

 

the best 2 managers at Newcastle in recent times, Keegan and Robson.

 

From the start, they brought an obvious improvement and came across as knowing what they were doing

73808[/snapback]

 

So I imagined 18 months of utter shite (disguised by a cup run) under Bobby?

 

There was no further sign of any improvement until Bellamy/Robert signed (see I can give praise to those two when rightful)

73822[/snapback]

Quite correct tbh.

73827[/snapback]

 

I'd say it's completely incorrect, that was a totally different situation.

 

Firstly, the general consensus was that Gullit (and Dalglish before him) had destroyed Keegan's team, filled it with dross like Hamilton, Marcelino, Maric etc. and that the club was headed for relegation. Some of our best players were about to jump ship, there was a lot of unrest and everyone knew we were going nowhere. In came Robson, and even though the first 18 months weren't great, most people seemed to be of the opinion that we had a good manager who would eventually turn the ship around. Contrast this with Souness, who took over a team that was arguably in decline, but still Top 5 material - it was way better than the one left by Gullit and Souness said so himself.

 

Secondly, Robson had virtually no money at all when he first came to the club. His first signing was Gallacher for £500k and it remained his only signing until the end of his first season (correct me if I'm wrong here). When he did get money, it was to buy players in an inflated market - not even Robert's fans (and I was one) thought he was worth £9.5m. Contrast this with Souness, who was given an outrageous amount of money virtually immediately after he was appointed.

 

They are two completely different situations - with Robson, people were at least optimistic about our future with him in charge. With Souness, even the most deluded fool can see that we're going backwards fast.

Edited by Bombadil
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Aye, sure it is. We had 1 point from 7 under Gullit, and we were about to lose arguably our greatest player ever and our best midfielder of recent times, and were in real danger of relegation. The improvement in form was immediate and amazing imo, and we were very unlucky not to win the cup that year, as anyone who was at Wembley will know (with Villa waiting for us in the final).

 

You seriously want to compare that situation with Souness's do you?

73835[/snapback]

 

On that basis Bobby would have been sacked early in 3 of the next 4 seasons.

 

In the league in 99/00 and 00/01 we were dross - just as bad if not worse than last/this year.

 

I also don't agree that the squad he took over was as bad as is being implied.

 

(I agree on the cup)

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Robson knew his stuff tactically, he has that over Souness ten fold, but he wasn't half a stubborn bastid sometimes. Sticking with his favourites despite them playing badly (Jenas) and selling Solano out of spite for example. Having said that, Fat Fred treated him like shit and the position he was put in in his final season was unnaceptable. Announcing publicly that he wouldn't be there end of the season and expecting the team to play for him? No wonder he lost the squad. I think the poor start to the season under Robson which got him sacked was partly the boards own doing. Knackers.

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Aye, sure it is. We had 1 point from 7 under Gullit, and we were about to lose arguably our greatest player ever and our best midfielder of recent times, and were in real danger of relegation. The improvement in form was immediate and amazing imo, and we were very unlucky not to win the cup that year, as anyone who was at Wembley will know (with Villa waiting for us in the final).

 

You seriously want to compare that situation with Souness's do you?

73835[/snapback]

No Renton, if you took a second to read things instead of your favourite pastime of putting words into people's mouths you would realise that I'm saying managers need time, as Robson did. Of course you need the right manager which Souness isn't. That's the third time I've wrote that as it clearly isn't getting through to you :)

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Aye, sure it is. We had 1 point from 7 under Gullit, and we were about to lose arguably our greatest player ever and our best midfielder of recent times, and were in real danger of relegation. The improvement in form was immediate and amazing imo, and we were very unlucky not to win the cup that year, as anyone who was at Wembley will know (with Villa waiting for us in the final).

 

You seriously want to compare that situation with Souness's do you?

73835[/snapback]

 

On that basis Bobby would have been sacked early in 3 of the next 4 seasons.

 

In the league in 99/00 and 00/01 we were dross - just as bad if not worse than last/this year.

 

I also don't agree that the squad he took over was as bad as is being implied.

 

(I agree on the cup)

73842[/snapback]

 

I think our two foreign correspondents (Bombadil and Isegrim) are spot on on this one, I think that you too NJS also know the difference. Also, nobody has even talked about the relative managerial CVs of Robson and Souness - they don't really compare. Personally, I am willing to give a manager more time if he has had previous success. And Robson to me had proven he was world class.

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The most important aspect of the new manager (if we get one) is that he genuinely believes he can get what he needs out of the current squad with perhaps the addition of a bit of cover. The last thing we need is someone to come in who decides he needs a new first 11.

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Aye, sure it is. We had 1 point from 7 under Gullit, and we were about to lose arguably our greatest player ever and our best midfielder of recent times, and were in real danger of relegation. The improvement in form was immediate and amazing imo, and we were very unlucky not to win the cup that year, as anyone who was at Wembley will know (with Villa waiting for us in the final).

 

You seriously want to compare that situation with Souness's do you?

73835[/snapback]

No Renton, if you took a second to read things instead of your favourite pastime of putting words into people's mouths you would realise that I'm saying managers need time, as Robson did. Of course you need the right manager which Souness isn't. That's the third time I've wrote that as it clearly isn't getting through to you :)

73845[/snapback]

 

 

It was really aimed at NJS, who was implying to me at least that the early NUFC careers of Souness and Robson were somehow comparable, which I strongly disagree with. If I am wrong about this comparison I apologise, though frankly in that case I don't know why it's being discussed.

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Actually, I never "called for his head" straight away as you put it, I think I was probably in favour of him being sacked after Christmas, during the Bellamy fiasco, which imo showed his complete lack of man-management skills to go along with his belief that tactics don't matter etc, etc, etc.....

 

The point is I predicted what a disaster he would be, and you didn't. Whilst you never said he would be the next messiah, I do recall you saying he would be good for us - which has patently been proven wrong.

 

Look, believe it or not, I'm not interested in petty points scoring now; I just think it would be nice if for once out of your 10000 odd posts on this and other similar message boards you could hold up your hands and say you were wrong about Souness, that's all.

 

And for the record, if we do appoint someone I don't approve of, I'll stick my head out and say it. There's a big difference between that and calling for his head before he's played a game though.

73830[/snapback]

 

So just to clarify; in saying the following:

 

"So what's your stance now Gemmill, out of interest? Are you finally going to admit you were wrong in your assertion that Souness should be given a minimum of 2 years to prove himself, regardless of results and performances on the field, and his PR off it? Can we finally expect an "I was wrong" Gemmill exclusive?"

 

you were in no way whatsoever interested in petty point scoring? :)

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Aye, sure it is. We had 1 point from 7 under Gullit, and we were about to lose arguably our greatest player ever and our best midfielder of recent times, and were in real danger of relegation. The improvement in form was immediate and amazing imo, and we were very unlucky not to win the cup that year, as anyone who was at Wembley will know (with Villa waiting for us in the final).

 

You seriously want to compare that situation with Souness's do you?

73835[/snapback]

 

On that basis Bobby would have been sacked early in 3 of the next 4 seasons.

 

In the league in 99/00 and 00/01 we were dross - just as bad if not worse than last/this year.

 

I also don't agree that the squad he took over was as bad as is being implied.

 

(I agree on the cup)

73842[/snapback]

 

I think our two foreign correspondents (Bombadil and Isegrim) are spot on on this one, I think that you too NJS also know the difference. Also, nobody has even talked about the relative managerial CVs of Robson and Souness - they don't really compare. Personally, I am willing to give a manager more time if he has had previous success. And Robson to me had proven he was world class.

73846[/snapback]

 

Won leagues in minor countries?

 

Only kidding - I know what you're saying and I sort of agree but my point is similar to others - I think people do deserve a chance which in your case I'd accept was forthcoming.

 

As I've said before of the shortlist last time I thought Souness was the best choice. With the same shortlist I'm still not ecstatic about the choices. A good alternative would make me happy but I will give whoever a chance.

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Actually, I never "called for his head" straight away as you put it, I think I was probably in favour of him being sacked after Christmas, during the Bellamy fiasco, which imo showed his complete lack of man-management skills to go along with his belief that tactics don't matter etc, etc, etc.....

 

The point is I predicted what a disaster he would be, and you didn't. Whilst you never said he would be the next messiah, I do recall you saying he would be good for us - which has patently been proven wrong.

 

Look, believe it or not, I'm not interested in petty points scoring now; I just think it would be nice if for once out of your 10000 odd posts on this and other similar message boards you could hold up your hands and say you were wrong about Souness, that's all.

 

And for the record, if we do appoint someone I don't approve of, I'll stick my head out and say it. There's a big difference between that and calling for his head before he's played a game though.

73830[/snapback]

 

So just to clarify; in saying the following:

 

"So what's your stance now Gemmill, out of interest? Are you finally going to admit you were wrong in your assertion that Souness should be given a minimum of 2 years to prove himself, regardless of results and performances on the field, and his PR off it? Can we finally expect an "I was wrong" Gemmill exclusive?"

 

you were in no way whatsoever interested in petty point scoring? :)

73850[/snapback]

 

Oh whatever. Maybe it is points scoring, but you seem to be incapable of admitting you were wrong.

 

Ever fancied a career as a lawyer or politician? ;)

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A manager needs time to achieve success. However the effect that manager has on a team is almost immediately apparent. The change in system, tactics, coaching can be seen almost immediately. For those that chose to look Souness was failing from the start and the outcome was inevitable.

 

I should add though that I never thought it was realistic that he would be sacked before the summer.

Edited by luckypierre
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Oh whatever. Maybe it is points scoring, but you seem to be incapable of admitting you were wrong.

Ever fancied a career as a lawyer or politician? ;)

73852[/snapback]

The irony tbh :)

73856[/snapback]

 

 

The predictability tbh.

 

If you want to point out where I have been wrong, and I agree, I will be only to happy to admit it. :razz:

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