Renton 17723 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: And I’m deflecting!!! Why not just post as things are other than typing blatant lies (yesterday and today). Much easier way of discussing politics. Sigh. May agreed to a backstop. Originally it was agreed to be specific to NI but in December Foster vetoed this. Despite this, it's still my interpretation that this is what the backstop means in practice and that May has been entirely disingenuous in her approach, a view shared by the EU and which risks the WA. I appreciate you don't agree, so let's move on. What "lie" have i told today? Do you accept that a hard Brexit FTA type deal is problematic for companies operating JiT manufacturing or not? Yes or no please? If no, then explain why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17723 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: But our trade with the EU is shrinking and 95% of future growth will be outside the EU. Why on Earth tie ourselves to a sinking ship. (Especially when the financial crisis of Greece and Italy is about to cause even more problems). Our trade with the EU isn't shrinking in absolute terms, it's just not increasing as much relatively, a phenomenon entirely expected as third world countries mature. We can trade with all these countries now. But because of economic gravity, the EU will always be our most important trade partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17723 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26232 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, Renton said: Sigh. May agreed to a backstop. Originally it was agreed to be specific to NI but in December Foster vetoed this. Despite this, it's still my interpretation that this is what the backstop means in practice and that May has been entirely disingenuous in her approach, a view shared by the EU and which risks the WA. I appreciate you don't agree, so let's move on. And this is why the EU want this issue locked down now. The EU don't trust the UK government so the Ireland backstop must be in the WA and be unequivocal. They can fudge whatever nonsense they want in the political declaration but the backstop has to be clear and has to be permanent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30337 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 37 minutes ago, Meenzer said: That's what Rayvin asked, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30337 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 42 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: Hows changing the government going in Venezuela? If Brexit is the disaster Renton fears then we could rejoin the EU. Stop deflecting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isegrim 8870 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Alex said: Love the notion that having to adhere to the result of a plebiscite forever is democratic. Even better when the example to support that is a general election, which takes place roughly every four years. CT at his unwitting best It was the most stupid thing to let something as fundamental as this decide by a simple majority. Brexiters would obviously have accepted a narrow defeat though.., 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Isegrim said: It was the most stupid thing to let something as fundamental as this decide by a simple majority. Brexiters would obviously have accepted a narrow defeat though.., How else could it be decided? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30337 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: How else could it be decided? How come a "massive political geek" doesn't know the history of similar votes taken in the past? Edited October 16, 2018 by Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19784 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Christmas Tree said: Wrong about what? Brexit? Thats democracy. What if all those who want Corbyns Labour to replace the Conservatives are wrong? If Brexit went wrong it leads to lower GDP and some job losses, if Corbyn borrows Billions, Mis manages the finances and turns us into Venezuela we’re all queuing up for rotting meat So you’re admitting you might have been wrong to vote for him? Don’t worry about rotting meat. You can go vegan and help save the planet while enjoying life in the socialist utopia you voted for. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30337 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 We're all going to Venezuela in a handcart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17723 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said: How else could it be decided? EU membership was consistently not in the top 3 concerns of the UK public. We l8ve in a parliamentary democracy, if it became so important to people they could have voted for a party offering it (UKip). Germany in the 1930s is proof plebiscite referenda are not a good idea. To have one about a subject this complex was insane. To have one not requiring a super majority even more insane. And to have one that didn't require unanimity between the constituent countries was asking for the break up of the UK. And then there's the lies, the illegal harvesting of voter data, the illegal spending, and the influence of Russia to consider. The outcome was inevitably fucked. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19784 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 far too complex an issue to put to the ill informed joe public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26232 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Renton said: To have one about a subject this complex was insane. To have one not requiring a super majority even more insane. And to have one that didn't require unanimity between the constituent countries was asking for the break up of the UK. None of those things were required as the referendum was merely 'advisory'. That was the biggest mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14574 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said: How else could it be decided? In 2010 UKIP polled 919,546 votes, 3.1% of the total, a gain of 0.9% from their last outing. How do we get from that to a straight in/out referendum being included in the Tory manifesto in 2015 CT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19784 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) cameron thought he would end a row which has divided his party for decades with a referendum just as he ended the scottish indy debate. he won the latter with a campaign of fear but on the EU referendum, he failed to predict how fear of brown people is a bigger issue for most of middle england and the great unwashed than fear of economic ruin. Edited October 16, 2018 by Dr Gloom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Renton said: We l8ve in a parliamentary democracy, if it became so important to people they could have voted for a party offering it (UKip). They did. The conservatives offered the public the refferendum at the 2015 election which resulted in the first conservative government in nearly 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 Just for clarity..... Voters backed the manifesto 553 MP’s voted for the refferendum 17.4 million voted to leave 500 MP’s voted to trigger article 50 stop whinging about democracy in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17723 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: They did. The conservatives offered the public the refferendum at the 2015 election which resulted in the first conservative government in nearly 20 years. As part of a cynical manifesto. You've unsurprisingly completely missed the point that plebiscite referenda about complex issues are inherently a bad idea. We live in a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. Edited October 16, 2018 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26232 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: Just for clarity..... Voters backed the manifesto 553 MP’s voted for the refferendum 17.4 million voted to leave 500 MP’s voted to trigger article 50 stop whinging about democracy in action. As long as that's the end of it. Democracy stopped when Article 50 was triggered. Now it's our obligation to go along with whatever plan Theresa May can cobble together with no dissenting voices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17723 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: Just for clarity..... Voters backed the manifesto 553 MP’s voted for the refferendum 17.4 million voted to leave 500 MP’s voted to trigger article 50 stop whinging about democracy in action. Good, I trust you agree with Davis that democracy is a process and must be allowed to change it's mind? Now seems quite a good time to test that. Not afraid to are you? As an aside, any democracy that has given us such awful representation is self evidently broken. If Brexit does one thing, I hope it leads to a change in our system of government. Could even you argue with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 25 minutes ago, Renton said: As part of a cynical manifesto. You've unsurprisingly completely missed the point that plebiscite referenda about complex issues are inherently a bad idea. We live in a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. So are you against a people’s vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, ewerk said: As long as that's the end of it. Democracy stopped when Article 50 was triggered. Now it's our obligation to go along with whatever plan Theresa May can cobble together with no dissenting voices. No it didn’t. It’s been debated and voted on numerous times in parliament and whatever plan May gets needs to be passed in parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isegrim 8870 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 33 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: Just for clarity..... Voters backed the manifesto 553 MP’s voted for the refferendum 17.4 million voted to leave 500 MP’s voted to trigger article 50 stop whinging about democracy in action. That’s the logic of the Nazis down here in the 1920s regarding demagogic plebiscites. They were clever enough not to misspell foreign words though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 27 minutes ago, Renton said: Good, I trust you agree with Davis that democracy is a process and must be allowed to change it's mind? Now seems quite a good time to test that. Not afraid to are you? As an aside, any democracy that has given us such awful representation is self evidently broken. If Brexit does one thing, I hope it leads to a change in our system of government. Could even you argue with that? Maybe we should action the first democratic decision first. To your 2nd point, it’s very rare we get a hung parliament, having a system that produces more of them doesn’t appeal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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