Dr Gloom 19733 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said: So are you against a people’s vote? even though i think leaving the EU is batshit crazy, i'm starting to think a people's vote is a bad idea, even though remain might edge it if there was another referendum tomorrow. you can only imagine the kind of dangerous, populist demagogue the 52% might turn to if they narrowly lost out in a re-run. it will be confirmation that the political class don't serve them and we could end up being confronted by some farage type on steroids - an english donald trump. we can still salvage something from this disaster if we "leave" the EU but stay in the CU and SM. but this all does rather depend on whether europe grants us an emergency brake on immigration, which is what cameron failed to achieve in the first place before we found ourselves in this sorry mess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17602 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: So are you against a people’s vote? I'm not sold on the idea actually, but May has got herself into such a mess it may be the only way forward. Look, about half the population voted for Brexit and half didn't in an advisory referendum. I wanted a grown up to examine the options and take the least damaging course. That's to leave the political structures of the EU and remain in the EEA and CU. Most people would accept that. There is no mandate for the extreme Brexit you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Isegrim said: That’s the logic of the Nazis down here in the 1920s regarding demagogic plebiscites. They were clever enough not to misspell foreign words though... Good job we sorted them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17602 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said: Maybe we should action the first democratic decision first. To your 2nd point, it’s very rare we get a hung parliament, having a system that produces more of them doesn’t appeal to me. We've had 8 years of hung parliaments, and they have been 8 very bad years. I want an end to adversarial politics full stop, it's ripping the country apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26165 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: even though i think leaving the EU is batshit crazy, i'm starting to think a people's vote is a bad idea, even though remain might edge it if there was another referendum tomorrow. you can only imagine the kind of dangerous, populist demagogue the 52% might turn to if they narrowly lost out in a re-run. it will be confirmation that the political class don't serve them and we could end up being confronted by some farage type on steroids - an english donald trump. we can still salvage something from this disaster if we "leave" the EU but stay in the CU and SM. but this all does rather depend on whether europe grants us an emergency brake on immigration, which is what cameron failed to achieve in the first place before we found ourselves in this sorry mess. So we just go along with the 52% for a quiet life? And at what point in the last twenty years would be have actually implemented an emergency brake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: even though i think leaving the EU is batshit crazy, i'm starting to think a people's vote is a bad idea, even though remain might edge it if there was another referendum tomorrow. you can only imagine the kind of dangerous, populist demagogue the 52% might turn to if they narrowly lost out in a re-run. it will be confirmation that the political class don't serve them and we could end up being confronted by some farage type on steroids - an english donald trump. we can still salvage something from this disaster if we "leave" the EU but stay in the CU and SM. but this all does rather depend on whether europe grants us an emergency brake on immigration, which is what cameron failed to achieve in the first place before we found ourselves in this sorry mess. I agree with a lot of that. I would rather we called Brexit off than have another vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14525 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 46 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: Just for clarity..... Voters backed the manifesto 553 MP’s voted for the refferendum 17.4 million voted to leave 500 MP’s voted to trigger article 50 stop whinging about democracy in action. There wasnt a mandate in the first place. Its a row in the tory party.... “the best prime minister in our lifetime” shit himself. Even May has shown more back bone than that cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26165 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Renton said: I'm not sold on the idea actually, but May has got herself into such a mess it may be the only way forward. Look, about half the population voted for Brexit and half didn't in an advisory referendum. I wanted a grown up to examine the options and take the least damaging course. That's to leave the political structures of the EU and remain in the EEA and CU. Most people would accept that. There is no mandate for the extreme Brexit you want. 37% of the electorate voted for leave. Not half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26165 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said: I agree with a lot of that. I would rather we called Brexit off than have another vote. That's commitment to the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isegrim 8868 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Just now, Christmas Tree said: Good job we sorted them out. Because of their orthographic skills or their xenophobic views? But i don’t think that bombing Brexiteers is on a Junckers agenda to fix this nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Renton said: We've had 8 years of hung parliaments, and they have been 8 very bad years. I want an end to adversarial politics full stop, it's ripping the country apart. We’ve had 8 tough years because of the financial crash. You will never end adversarial politics in a democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, ewerk said: That's commitment to the cause. I’d rather see you lot make up and then we could get on with our lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19733 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, ewerk said: So we just go along with the 52% for a quiet life? And at what point in the last twenty years would be have actually implemented an emergency brake? We wouldn’t but it’s the kind of fudge that would keep the gammons at bay while hopefully preventing the rise of some terrifying Viktor Oban type. It’d be remaining in all but name. Edited October 16, 2018 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17602 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: We’ve had 8 tough years because of the financial crash. You will never end adversarial politics in a democracy. It doesn't have to be winner takes all. Our political system as well as the US is a complete shambles now, not fit for purpose. I'll give you an example. When UKip got 10% of the votes they had every right to be represented. It would have beenuch less damaging and more importantly fair. What we got with Cameron's appeasement was much worse. FPTP is now leading to extreme governments rather than moderate ones. That's not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26165 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said: We wouldn’t but it’s the kind of fudge that would keep the gammons at bay while hopefully preventing the rise of some terrifying Viktor Oban type. The gammons can fuck off. You've seen how they've been emboldened since the vote. Time to put them back in their box. Edited October 16, 2018 by ewerk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Renton said: It doesn't have to be winner takes all. Our political system as well as the US is a complete shambles now, not fit for purpose. But we haven’t had “winner takes all” for the last 8 years that you are complaining about. Had either party had a big majority in 2010 or 2015 then we wouldn’t be in this position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, ewerk said: The gammons can fuck off. You've seen how they've been emboldened since the vote. Time to put them back in their box. I’ll have to grow my fringe back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19733 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ewerk said: The gammons can fuck off. You've seen how they've been emboldened since the vote. Time to put them back in their box. Imagine what another campaign would be like man: the fury and vitriol, more divisive lies, increasing racial and social tensions. It’s potentially dangerous either way: either the brexiters secure another narrow win and are validated, winning a mandate for economic suicide, or remain nick it, we imagine the last couple of years didn’t happen, pretend we haven’t wasted billions in the process and sit back while some populist strong man type seizes the day and drives us towards dystopia. Edited October 16, 2018 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17602 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: But we haven’t had “winner takes all” for the last 8 years that you are complaining about. Had either party had a big majority in 2010 or 2015 then we wouldn’t be in this position. Erm, Cameron 2015? Remember, best PM of your lifetime? Our system isn't built for power sharing. We need to change this because people need to be represented in the 21st century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 24 minutes ago, Renton said: Erm, Cameron 2015? Remember, best PM of your lifetime? Our system isn't built for power sharing. We need to change this because people need to be represented in the 21st century. I’m confused, I thought you were advocating power sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 @ewerk What is reality on the ground of a United Ireland? Is it part of everyday discourse, is the clamour growing, is a vote likely in the next few years, will a United Ireland stay in the EU or would that need a vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17602 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: I’m confused, I thought you were advocating power sharing. I am. I'm advocating ripping up FptP and bringing in PR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17602 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said: @ewerk What is reality on the ground of a United Ireland? Is it part of everyday discourse, is the clamour growing, is a vote likely in the next few years, will a United Ireland stay in the EU or would that need a vote? Why would it need a vote when most people in NI voted remain and the huge majority in Ireland are pro EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26165 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: @ewerk What is reality on the ground of a United Ireland? Is it part of everyday discourse, is the clamour growing, is a vote likely in the next few years, will a United Ireland stay in the EU or would that need a vote? It isn’t an issue yet. That will change if a hard border goes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Renton said: I am. I'm advocating ripping up FptP and bringing in PR. That doesn’t get rid of your political spectrum from far left to far right and you would just end up with policy deadlock and incremental changes. Sometimes, as with Thatcher and Blair, you need strong governments to govern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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