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Europe --- In or Out


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47 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

So Vince Cable is advocating a three option referendum. Even the clowns that want a referendum are fucking it up. 

i'd rather a fudged deal than that. i don't trust the morons in this country not to vote no deal. 

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11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Wouldn't it just split the leave vote?

imagine the campaign before any confirmatory referendum man. it'll be leave means leave galore. i wouldn't trust the country not to fall for it again

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Just now, Dr Gloom said:

imagine the campaign before any confirmatory referendum man. it'll be leave means leave galore. i wouldn't trust the country not to fall for it again

 

At least it's a clear mandate if it does. I mean it would be unarguable from our point of view. Part of what is so frustrating about this chaos is that there is no mandate for anything.

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it'll be economic suicide, but at least we'll all finally be able to agree it is the will of the people. 

 

Edited by Dr Gloom
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5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

it'll be economic suicide, but at least we'll all finally be able to agree it is the will of the people. 

 

 

That actually is a silver lining to a degree. The people will have no one else to blame.

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I've explained before how this could easily be tackled using an AV system. It would be very unlikely for no deal to win under that scenario because 90% of remainers would vote May deal as second choice over no deal. Btw, the NoT mayoral referendum is an example of what I'm talking about, it would be simpler still with 3 options. 

 

I think there is a strong logical case for not having no deal on the ballot though. First is, the EU may not grant an extension if this is an option. But more importantly, it breaks the GFA. Should the electorate be allowed to force the government to break an international agreement and possibly start another war, without the consent of the Irish themselves? I really don't see how anybody can say yes to this, other than the lunatic fringe. 

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1 hour ago, Renton said:

I've explained before how this could easily be tackled using an AV system. It would be very unlikely for no deal to win under that scenario because 90% of remainers would vote May deal as second choice over no deal. Btw, the NoT mayoral referendum is an example of what I'm talking about, it would be simpler still with 3 options. 

 

I think there is a strong logical case for not having no deal on the ballot though. First is, the EU may not grant an extension if this is an option. But more importantly, it breaks the GFA. Should the electorate be allowed to force the government to break an international agreement and possibly start another war, without the consent of the Irish themselves? I really don't see how anybody can say yes to this, other than the lunatic fringe. 

All the British electorate would really be doing is confirming that they prefer the default position at the end of A50 to May’s deal or remain. Couldn’t that result pave the way towards a “managed” no deal? It’s better than falling off a cliff edge, I guess. There would still probably be many more years of political impasse while they try to resolve the NI border question and everything else. It’s all advisory anyway. If we can’t make it work let’s just call the whole thing off. 

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1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

All the British electorate would really be doing is confirming that they prefer the default position at the end of A50 to May’s deal or remain. Couldn’t that result pave the way towards a “managed” no deal? It’s better than falling off a cliff edge, I guess. There would still probably be many more years of political impasse while they try to resolve the NI border question and everything else. It’s all advisory anyway. If we can’t make it work let’s just call the whole thing off. 

The EU will give us what they need, not what we want. It'll be completely asymmetric and we will have No leverage whatsoever. And we will ultimately have to agree with all the conditions set in the WA if we ever want a deal. The idea that we can negotiate a better deal after we crash out is laughable. 

Edited by Renton
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58 minutes ago, ewerk said:

That looks inevitable anyway.

Marr did a good job this morning of illustrating just how split/duplicitous Labour is.

He's upped his game against everyone tbf. 

Edited by Renton
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14 hours ago, ewerk said:

Pity you don’t have a friend though.

 

I have managed to win 4 friends, and 6 family members over to the Lib Dem cause :D

 

Anything to shut me up, apparently.

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