Europe --- In or Out

[Rayvin 4949]

And what are your views on the backstop? I've seen some people talk as if we should just jettison NI, Ewerk be damned

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Rayvin

[zerosum 234]

27 minutes ago, NJS said:

 

I do agree the campaigning question (against their own deal) is difficult but there's nothing that bad about "we want you to vote remain but if you can't at least the other option isn't that bad" in my view - though I can see it's attackable. 

 

Thats the problem, it’s completely attackable and will have another 2 or 3 years of back and forth imo. Over 17m people are going to see ANOTHER remain team put something together and say.. there you go - ta da - there’s your Brexit.

 

Then they campaign for remain.

 

How much shit do you think would hit the fan then?

 

As ewerk says it is probably irresponsible for Gov. to put no deal as an only alternative option..

[Rayvin 4949]

1 minute ago, zerosum said:

 

Thats the problem, it’s completely attackable and will have another 2 or 3 years of back and forth imo. Over 17m people are going to see ANOTHER remain team put something together and say.. there you go - ta da - there’s your Brexit.

 

Then they campaign for remain.

 

How much shit do you think would hit the fan then?

 

As ewerk says it is probably irresponsible for Gov. to put no deal as an only alternative option..

 

That's a fair point.

[zerosum 234]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

And what are your views on the backstop? I've seen some people talk as if we should just jettison NI, Ewerk be damned

 

 

 

I don’t know anymore man. As I said to Renton it’s become apparent I knew fuck all about customs union as things transpired.

[Rayvin 4949]

3 minutes ago, zerosum said:

 

I don’t know anymore man. As I said to Renton it’s become apparent I knew fuck all about customs union as things transpired.

 

I mean hardly any of us knew anything going into this vote, so it's forgivable.

 

The primary reason I voted Remain was that I couldn't fathom the implications of such a huge decision - coupled with the fact that it always felt to me like austerity was the bigger issue (hence my support for Corbyn in his earlier days and total disillusionment with Labour under Miliband). And I say that even as an EU federalist who believes in the creation of a superstate

 

It's been reassuring to see, in a way, that the politicians turned out to be just as clueless as us. The EU seem to have a pretty good grasp of how the EU works at least.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Rayvin

[zerosum 234]

Yeah the EU understands itself, that’s certain.

[Rayvin 4949]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/06/boris-johnson-short-of-options-as-rebels-vow-to-secure-brexit-delay

 

Johnson is apparently going to break the law instead of ask for an extension. I mean... What?

Edited September 7, 2019 by Rayvin

[Dr Gloom 19750]

The people in the this country are definitely stupid enough to vote for no deal if it’s on the ballot paper. Don’t give them the opportunity to fuck themselves 

[Rayvin 4949]

The former Conservative leader Iain Duncan Smith encouraged Mr Johnson to break the law, saying he would be seen as a Brexit “martyr” if judges opted to put him jail for breaching parliament’s terms.

 

?!

[Dr Gloom 19750]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/06/boris-johnson-short-of-options-as-rebels-vow-to-secure-brexit-delay

 

Boris is apparently going to break the law instead of ask for an extension. I mean... What?

Cummings is off his tits

[Rayvin 4949]

If Johnson is really insane enough to do that, the only recourse open to the opposition is a VONC, which does technically give him what he wants.

 

On the other hand, this is a ready made excuse for Labour to point to on Monday when they don't vote for the GE. Johnson proving himself to be, basically, a criminal. Something we've all known for years anyway, but still.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Rayvin

[ewerk 26192]

Johnson is too self interested to put himself in danger of prison imo. He’ll threaten it but will resign before he has to do it.

[Renton 17634]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I think because of the way the whole thing has been handled so far, No Deal kind of has to be on the ballot. Too many politicians have made it sound credible. 

 

I do see what you're saying though, and i think its possible they will remove it. Labour seem fairly clear on that at least.

 

As for Zerosum, one point you made that I was curious about. In your view, how was Mays deal anything other than hard Brexit? It killed freedom of movement and took us out of all institutions if i remember rightly. I ask because you refer to it as a hard-ish Brexit.

 

No deal breaks an international agreement, the GFA. No way should it be on the ballot. An NI specific backstop should be included as a minimum. 

 

As for May's deal, it is an extremely hard Brexit. It would be a disaster to accept this now if the Tories win the next election. They will use it as a slightly softer landing to a proxy FTA. An FTA doesn't preserve frictionless trade. All the analysis shows it is only slight better than no deal. The NE would contract 12% under this scenario. 

[Renton 17634]

1 hour ago, zerosum said:

 

Thats the problem, it’s completely attackable and will have another 2 or 3 years of back and forth imo. Over 17m people are going to see ANOTHER remain team put something together and say.. there you go - ta da - there’s your Brexit.

 

Then they campaign for remain.

 

How much shit do you think would hit the fan then?

 

As ewerk says it is probably irresponsible for Gov. to put no deal as an only alternative option..

 

Another remain team? Davis, Raab, and Barclay were remainers? 

 

No deal will cause rifts for generations anyway imo. 

[Renton 17634]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

If Johnson is really insane enough to do that, the only recourse open to the opposition is a VONC, which does technically give him what he wants.

 

On the other hand, this is a ready made excuse for Labour to point to on Monday when they don't vote for the GE. Johnson proving himself to be, basically, a criminal. Something we've all known for years anyway, but still.

 

Aye, he just keeps on digging. I don't believe Cummings and Johnson are some kind of geniuses, they've fucked up badly and keep on making it worse for themselves.

[ewerk 26192]

It’s almost like governing isn’t as easy as running a xenophobic nationalist campaign.

[Gemmill 34196]

Aye, sorry you can't put no deal on the ballot because you can't adequately explain to people the dangers of no deal, because the Internet. It would be incredibly irresponsible and the campaign that went with it would be a parcel of lies. 

 

No one, faced with what no deal would actually entail, would vote for it. So don't give them the option. You give them a deal and you spell out what each element of it would mean. And you give them remain. 

[NJS 3960]

This should be way to get at the libs - ask them what kind of deal should be on there. 

 

If they were honest they'd say sod the vote, let's just revoke -  still pretty voteable for a shit load of people but they'd have to up their game on the why. 

 

I think the vote itself was definitely corrupted and obviously mis-sold but it's still a big thing to ignore it. 

 

 

[Alex 30260]

The chancellor on the Beeb again this morning being largely unchallenged when spouting the same old shit. A prime example being that everyone, no matter how they voted in the referendum, just wants us to get on with leaving quickly. Does anyone know a Remainer who feels that way? I’d love to see the polling evidence behind that statement 

[ewerk 26192]

It was clear that he didn’t even believe his own shite. 

The government is going to obey the law but at the same time break it by taking us out on 31st October with no deal.

The Conservatives are now a party who have announced they’re going to prorogue parliament, have a central policy which will cause huge damage to our economy, purged lifelong member MPs who have rebelled, claimed that they will refuse to comply with the law and completely broken convention by running against the speaker.

This is not how politics is supposed to work.

[Renton 17634]

An absolute shambles of an interview by Javid there. I thought Marr pressed him quite well. Fully exposed the ridiculousness of his won't break the law whilst breaking the law crap. Got him on the ropes about them making  pact with Farage. He wouldn't deny it. Tht should be headline news tomorrow. It's incredible this man is the CoE. 

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

An absolute shambles of an interview by Javid there. I thought Marr pressed him quite well. Fully exposed the ridiculousness of his won't break the law whilst breaking the law crap. Got him on the ropes about them making  pact with Farage. He wouldn't deny it. Tht should be headline news tomorrow. It's incredible this man is the CoE. 

 

Incredible he's anything other than a road sweeper. Thick as mince.

[Gemmill 34196]

He's thick as fuck. And his voice is like someone hacked Stephen Hawking. And he's utterly without principles. 

 

I cannot stand these Tory cunts. 

[Gemmill 34196]

I'll confess to being slightly concerned by this insistence that we're still going out on the 31st whatever happens. It feels like they're going to do something genuinely mental next month. 

 

How can there be anyone but the ERG left if they try to pull something like that though? I don't believe that there is a majority left in that party that will stand by and let Johnson try and ignore the law. 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

I think he's chancellor to prove that Johnson can't be a massive racist.