Europe --- In or Out

[ewerk 26292]

Or maybe it's because those of lower educational attainment are more likely to be negatively impacted by EU immigration?

 

You pair of degree educated, ivory tower dwelling snobs.

[Rayvin 4964]

Or maybe it's because those of lower educational attainment are more likely to be negatively impacted by EU immigration?

 

You pair of degree educated, ivory tower dwelling snobs.

 

Now you sound like me

 

I'm not blind to that, but pragmatically, my statement holds. As unfair as it may be, they'd be fucked without the remainers. We'd not be fucked without them.

 

The research in that article posits that more diverse areas voted in though - suggesting that many of the people who actually live with immigrants can see the benefits. How negatively impacted can Sunderland, with something like a 97% white population, claim to be?

[ewerk 26292]

I hope that every leaver has personally thanked you for your benevolence in allowing them to survive.

[Rayvin 4964]

I hope that every leaver has personally thanked you for your benevolence in allowing them to survive.

 

I wouldn't care if they had or hadn't, I'm simply articulating my view of the situation. Emotional needs don't come into it.

 

The fact remains that the educated and generally younger people who voted for Remain will be the ones broadly responsible for sustaining the welfare state and supporting everyone else. Whether the Brexiters can see that or not is entirely immaterial. They've tasked us with a far harder challenge in keeping their heads above water.

[Renton 17746]

Or maybe it's because those of lower educational attainment are more likely to be negatively impacted by EU immigration?

 

You pair of degree educated, ivory tower dwelling snobs.

I spit on the bigoted cunts from my perch in the white tower.

[ewerk 26292]

I wouldn't care if they had or hadn't, I'm simply articulating my view of the situation. Emotional needs don't come into it.

 

The fact remains that the educated and generally younger people who voted for Remain will be the ones broadly responsible for sustaining the welfare state and supporting everyone else. Whether the Brexiters can see that or not is entirely immaterial. They've tasked us with a far harder challenge in keeping their heads above water.

 

You used to be easier to guilt. When did you become so hard hearted?

[Rayvin 4964]

You used to be easier to guilt. When did you become so hard hearted?

 

I always liked to think of myself as just 'fair'

 

Truth be told, I spent 3 hours in the gym yesterday for the first time in a couple of weeks to 'catch up' and I'm fucking feeling it now. The world and its problems can get fucked.

[PaddockLad 14584]

I spit on the bigoted cunts from my perch in the white tower.

No doubt you got a good price for the tower from Pawel and Dariusz

 

Do you have any time at all for the opinion that we've had too much immigration?

[Rayvin 4964]

No doubt you got a good price for the tower from Pawel and Dariusz

 

Do you have any time at all for the opinion that we've had too much immigration?

 

I do, on the grounds that it's brought us Brexit. Prior to that, I'm not sure I would have thought that was the case.

[Dr Gloom 19817]

Read that. Brexiters are thick, senile, racists shocker.

 

it is tempting to think that. but it can't apply to 52% of people who voted, can it? 

[Renton 17746]

No doubt you got a good price for the tower from Pawel and Dariusz

 

Do you have any time at all for the opinion that we've had too much immigration?

 

Oh here we are. The borders lad made good darn sarf wants to pipe in and give his say.

 

Being serious though, I'm well aware that immigration, or it s perception, has had a negative impact on many people's lives. Its had no impact at all on my life or for the vast majority of the north east though, and they collectively voted Brexit. There's always trade offs to be had of course but on the whole immigration from Europe has been positive imo.

 

So why did people vote for Brexit? You've said it yourself recently, because they were misinformed and didn't have the capacity to properly appraise the situation. You can summarise that as "thick" or not as you like. There will be a smaller measure of overt racism thrown in, as well as a protest against the bogeyman.

[PaddockLad 14584]

I do, on the grounds that it's brought us Brexit. Prior to that, I'm not sure I would have thought that was the case.

Oh here we are. The borders lad made good darn sarf wants to pipe in and give his say.

Being serious though, I'm well aware that immigration, or it s perception, has had a negative impact on many people's lives. Its had no impact at all on my life or for the vast majority of the north east though, and they collectively voted Brexit. There's always trade offs to be had of course but on the whole immigration from Europe has been positive imo.

So why did people vote for Brexit? You've said it yourself recently, because they were misinformed and didn't have the capacity to properly appraise the situation. You can summarise that as "thick" or not as you like. There will be a smaller measure of overt racism thrown in, as well as a protest against the bogeyman.

I don't think my life has been affected by immigration in any way either and I compete for work with immigrants every day in construction/engineering, however I know dozens of people who voted out who you could say the same about. Some of my friends didn't want their kids being held back at school by them being in a class with lots of Eastern European kids in it all trying to learn proper English. I couldn't really tell them they were wrong. Whether it was the case in fact or not they were concerned about it. Add that to the sense of nationhood we're almost all brought up with being manipulated by Farage & co then it was a pretty easy decision for them. They're ordinary folk, not bigots or bar room racists or anything like that.

 

I was a pretty reluctant remainer myself; the EU needed(s) massive reform to make it more democratic and accountable. But in its present form leaving wasn't worth the risk, the benefits of staying in were greater for me, and history and common sense told me that the public face of the leave campaign were people you just really couldn't trust in any way shape or form. But there was one thing I hadn't thought about and Trump getting in has magnified it; the world is changing, there are elections in the Netherlands and France in the next few months, if they both go with the populist anti EU ticket then I don't think the EU will survive in any form, Germany + the rest isn't worth the tears Nichola Sturgeon (among others) will shed over it. Normally I'm against flag wavers of any kind, that cunt Farage is just that, playing on people's fears. But if Brexit is the first break in the dam, if that is just the start of the dismantling of what is now a fairly monstrous bureaucracy then I'm coming round to the thought that it might not be such a bad thing. It might fuck a lot if other smaller nations over, but we'd all be in the same boat.

Edited February 6, 2017 by PaddockLad

[Renton 17746]

I don't think my life has been affected by immigration in any way either and I compete for work with immigrants every day in construction/engineering, however I know dozens of people who voted out who you could say the same about. Some of my friends didn't want their kids being held back at school by them being in a class with lots of Eastern European kids in it all trying to learn proper English. I couldn't really tell them they were wrong. Whether it was the case in fact or not they were concerned about it. Add that to the sense of nationhood we're almost all brought up with being manipulated by Farage & co then it was a pretty easy decision for them. They're ordinary folk, not bigots or bar room racists or anything like that.

 

I was a pretty reluctant remainer myself; the EU needed(s) massive reform to make it more democratic and accountable. But in its present form leaving wasn't worth the risk, the benefits of staying in were greater for me, and history and common sense told me that the public face of the leave campaign were people you just really couldn't trust in any way shape or form. But there was one thing I hadn't thought about and Trump getting in has magnified it; the world is changing, there are elections in the Netherlands and France in the next few months, if they both go with the populist anti EU ticket then I don't think the EU will survive in any form, Germany + the rest isn't worth the tears Nichola Sturgeon (among others) will shed over it. Normally I'm against flag wavers of any kind, that cunt Farage is just that, playing on people's fears. But if Brexit is the first break in the dam, if that is just the start of the dismantling of what is now a fairly monstrous bureaucracy then I'm coming round to the thought that it might not be such a bad thing. It might fuck a lot if other smaller nations over, but we'd all be in the same boat.

Interesting. I'm quite unusual really in that I don't see the EU as a monstrous bureaucracy at all. In fact it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me for these regulatory laws to be centralised and applied to all member countries. I think bureaucracy in the UK will be a lot worse now as we'll still need to comply with the EU. I also see no particular problems with the democratic structure, it strikes me that the UK must has a problem with democracy applied on a pan European level.

 

I just can't see any benefits to this mess whatever. EU migrants do essential work and we're net contributors. Most immigrants aren't EU. If the government won't spend the extra money it gets from taxation on schools and hospitals then that is surely a domestic issue.

 

The only real gripe I had with the EU was it's constant march eastwards and the huge problems that created with divergent economies. It was a victim of its own success in a way. However, I don't think this issue was insurmountable.

 

You'll all be okay in your south coast bubble anyway. But up in the north east? Not so much I expect. Being out of the customs union and single market will ultimately kill Nissan and it's suppliers. A lot of leavers also seem to be relishing in a bit of schadenfreude and hoping the whole EU fails. If that happens, it's my opinion the whole continent is fucked.

[PaddockLad 14584]

Interesting. I'm quite unusual really in that I don't see the EU as a monstrous bureaucracy at all. In fact it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me for these regulatory laws to be centralised and applied to all member countries. I think bureaucracy in the UK will be a lot worse now as we'll still need to comply with the EU. I also see no particular problems with the democratic structure, it strikes me that the UK must has a problem with democracy applied on a pan European level.

Well the ones who hold the real power in the EU aren't elected, I don't have much of an issue with that myself because as far as I can make out what they rule on doesn't affect me too much. Having said that, it's hardly demorcratic is it? And what do they have in store for us in the long term?

 

 

I just can't see any benefits to this mess whatever. EU migrants do essential work and we're net contributors. Most immigrants aren't EU. If the government won't spend the extra money it gets from taxation on schools and hospitals then that is surely a domestic issue.

The only real gripe I had with the EU was it's constant march eastwards and the huge problems that created with divergent economies. It was a victim of its own success in a way. However, I don't think this issue was insurmountable.

Agree with all this mostly, I hear people being complelty dishonest/mis-informed/ blatantly scared out of their wits about immigration daily.

 

You'll all be okay in your south coast bubble anyway. But up in the north east? Not so much I expect. Being out of the customs union and single market will ultimately kill Nissan and it's suppliers. A lot of leavers also seem to be relishing in a bit of schadenfreude and hoping the whole EU fails. If that happens, it's my opinion the whole continent is fucked.

I'm likely to be ok yeah, depends if there is a recession on the scale of the last one once we're officially "out" come 2019. I didn't work for four months either side of the Christmas in both 2008 and 2009, with periods of idleness all through both years and well into 2010. That's the reason I voted in, it's as simple as that. I also think ŵe should in general be tearing down barriers as much as we can, fuck the flag wavers, throughout history they've always been bad news. Sadly others are more easily lead.

[ewerk 26292]

Looks like our brave MPs have forced the government to offer them a vote on the final Brexit deal. Which will of course be even more of a waste of time than the current vote given that the alternative is to walk away with absolutely no deal. 

 

And while our valiant opposition have tabled a number of amendments, their leader has instructed them to pass the bill regardless of whether the amendments are accepted or not. A real fine negotiating position there, Jezza.

[Rayvin 4964]

Yeah the whole thing continues to be a farce. The best Labour can hope for is that their amendments are ignored and the resulting deal is so shit that the public tear the Tories a new one. Or that economic armageddon is on the horizon if we get no deal at all.

 

This whole process has to be one of the biggest, costliest wastes of time that this country has ever embarked upon.

[ewerk 26292]

We had the Scottish referendum, then the GE, then the Brexit referendum, then the Tory leadership campaign and now we're going to have two years of Brexit negotiations. 

 

At what point do the Commons actually do the day to day job they've been elected to do? They've spent the last three years on sideshows.

[Park Life 70]

We had the Scottish referendum, then the GE, then the Brexit referendum, then the Tory leadership campaign and now we're going to have two years of Brexit negotiations. 

 

At what point do the Commons actually do the day to day job they've been elected to do? They've spent the last three years on sideshows.

Brussels does the day to day. Commons is a coffee morning.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3194]

Well the ones who hold the real power in the EU aren't elected, I don't have much of an issue with that myself because as far as I can make out what they rule on doesn't affect me too much. Having said that, it's hardly demorcratic is it? And what do they have in store for us in the long term?

 

 

 

Agree with all this mostly, I hear people being complelty dishonest/mis-informed/ blatantly scared out of their wits about immigration daily.

 

 

I'm likely to be ok yeah, depends if there is a recession on the scale of the last one once we're officially "out" come 2019. I didn't work for four months either side of the Christmas in both 2008 and 2009, with periods of idleness all through both years and well into 2010. That's the reason I voted in, it's as simple as that. I also think ŵe should in general be tearing down barriers as much as we can, fuck the flag wavers, throughout history they've always been bad news. Sadly others are more easily lead.

 

 

That's bollocks, the power in the EU is held by the council of ministers which is basically the elected leaders of the member nations. The Commission is more or less the civil service of the EU with no real power other than agenda setting. If Britain had not been thick beyond belief and voted for Brexit and really wanted accountability then it could have actually worked to remove even agenda setting from the commission and put more power to the parliament. However the elected leaders of the EU, Britain especially like campaigning one way at home and voting the other way in the council then blaming it all on the EU bureaeucracy. They also don't want the EU Parliament which isn't populated by Oxford graduates of the same course having any power.

[PaddockLad 14584]

That's bollocks, the power in the EU is held by the council of ministers which is basically the elected leaders of the member nations. The Commission is more or less the civil service of the EU with no real power other than agenda setting. If Britain had not been thick beyond belief and voted for Brexit and really wanted accountability then it could have actually worked to remove even agenda setting from the commission and put more power to the parliament. However the elected leaders of the EU, Britain especially like campaigning one way at home and voting the other way in the council then blaming it all on the EU bureaeucracy. They also don't want the EU Parliament which isn't populated by Oxford graduates of the same course having any power.

Think it depends on how you look at it. Council merely rubber stamps the policies the commission come up with as far as I can make out.

[ewerk 26292]

I have no more power over who makes the decisions within the EU than I do Westminster.

[Alex 30383]

So you don't

[Park Life 70]

Guy Verhofstadt with his 7 orders of the Cross and one Knight Commander is proper Sith Lord material and Theresa will have to be on her game. The war for the future has begun.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Park Life

[Dr Gloom 19817]

Willlies close to exhaustion from ceaseless waving

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/20/divide-and-rule-tactics-could-leave-uk-without-deal-say-eu-politicians

[Rayvin 4964]