Europe --- In or Out

[Christmas Tree 153]

 

More or less on Radio 4 have done some good shows on debunking the numbers. Recommended.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jczmc

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jl61s

 

It's the most balanced hour I've seen on the pros and cons. Unfortunately it doesn't sway me in any particular direction either.

 

Think I'll vote to stay purely because I don't feel that European membership causes any problems that would be resolved by leaving.

That's fair enough. I'll have a listen to those links. Cheers.

[Rayvin 1,321]

I do want us to enter into ever closer union with Europe to be honest, but I'm in a very small minority and don't expect to ever see it in my lifetime.

 

The Britain I thought I lived in was diverse, good natured and had a constructive if slightly over-reaching influence on Europe. We lead from the sidelines in the EU, which suits the British way. Germany and France take the headlines, but we manipulate behind the scenes. And I think that's actually something we should be proud of. We should be proud as well of being part of the EU for what it is. I genuinely believe that the rest of the world looks on enviously at Europe, and that our attempts to pull away, if successful, will represent the start of the final decline of the European powers, before we're assimilated into something else in the future - something with which we have even less shared identity.

 

The world has changed, and Britain can't go back in time. The EU is our best chance of preserving what we have.

 

There - that's a load of emotive stuff about Europe aside from all the facts which people are apparently tired of.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Rayvin

[Meenzer 3,959]

That's your view not mine. There's always a choice.I've lived through a lifetime of a very uneasy relationship between the UK and Europe. We don't want to go where they want to go, never have, never will.

I think the whole project is unraveling and don't see any advantage of being tied to it politically.

 

You see, that's grand. I think we should get over ourselves and work on making that relationship less uneasy, that we should be trying to go more in the same direction, and that - given the geopolitical situation and the fact things aren't going to get any more stable in the wider world - now is precisely the time to be banding together. You disagree, partly because you think our differences are fundamentally too great to overcome within the format of something like the EU and we shouldn't be trying to force something that isn't going to happen. We'll vote accordingly tomorrow, and whatever happens will happen. I just wish more of the actual campaign (from both sides) had been about basic principles and not the stuff it's been focusing on instead. It's been an utterly wasted opportunity to actually have a discourse about it all.

[ewerk 6,236]

We don't want to go where they want to go, never have, never will.

 

 

Where is it that they want to go?

 

That Tory wifey kept bleating on last night about an EU tax identification number as if it was clear evidence of an EU superstate when in fact it is more than likely a good thing to simply intra-EU tax and make it easier to detect tax avoidance.

[ewerk 6,236]

It's all to do with things reversing. Not your strongest point.

 

A bit like you and anything intellectual.

[NJS 772]

I think there's an element of people's experiences which forms their opinion - a lot of these working class areas tend towards a negative view of EU immigrants whereas for me working with Germans, French and yes Polish people has been very positive.

 

I do wish more British people would see European as part of their identity as I think it's apparent how much we have in common. As I've said before I think we have layers of tribal identity which starts small and goes all the way to planet level. I don't think there's anything wrong with European being one of those levels.

 

On immigration I'd say that I count myself as an economic migrant albeit internally who moved 300 miles for a better life. The lad next to be moved 12000 miles - I don't see that much difference really though I accept that shared culture helps.

[Renton 2,089]

I do want us to enter into ever closer union with Europe to be honest, but I'm in a very small minority and don't expect to ever see it in my lifetime.

 

The Britain I thought I lived in was diverse, good natured and had a constructive if slightly over-reaching influence on Europe. We lead from the sidelines in the EU, which suits the British way. Germany and France take the headlines, but we manipulate behind the scenes. And I think that's actually something we should be proud of. We should be proud as well of being part of the EU for what it is. I genuinely believe that the rest of the world looks on enviously at Europe, and that our attempts to pull away, if successful, will represent the start of the final decline of the European powers, before we're assimilated into something else in the future - something with which we have even less shared identity.

 

The world has changed, and Britain can't go back in time. The EU is our best chance of preserving what we have.

 

There - that's a load of emotive stuff about Europe aside from all the facts which people are apparently tired of.

I agree with one fairly big caveat. I don't think the EU should ever have expanded beyond east Germany in the north (excepting Finland) and Italy in the south. The eastern bloc countries are culturally different to us, but more importantly they weren't ready for economic integration. Their inclusion has caused a lot of issues we have now economically and through freedom of movement. Can't rewind the clock now though. I don't see any prospect of Turkey joining the EU, just Leave lies. If it ever did happen, I'd be wanting Brexit myself.

[AmericanMag 0]

I wouldn't mind but he's a taxi driver ffs, he has a shit job, he doesn't even have a hack license. Taxi drivers are the most politically myopic fuckers on earth after Americans. Strangely though all the American taxi drivers I have travelled with seem alright.

Now hold on a second.... I am totally accepting of generalizations about Americans and a lot of the time agree... HOWEVER, grouping myself and the rest of my countrymen along with CT is too much and I will not stand for it!

 

but then again, he would probably vote for Trump is he was American...

[NJS 772]

I agree with one fairly big caveat. I don't think the EU should ever have expanded beyond east Germany in the north (excepting Finland) and Italy in the south. The eastern bloc countries are culturally different to us, but more importantly they weren't ready for economic integration. Their inclusion has caused a lot of issues we have now economically and through freedom of movement. Can't rewind the clock now though. I don't see any prospect of Turkey joining the EU, just Leave lies. If it ever did happen, I'd be wanting Brexit myself.

I agree on the most poor countries.

 

I've read that a single veto can prevent membership so I think even a consensus towards turkey joining would be stopped by several countries - Cyprus and Greece to name but two.

[Meenzer 3,959]

Plus Turkey have distanced themselves politically from "the west" in recent years, what with Erdogan's authoritarianism and various spats with Germany/Merkel and all. I'd say the prospect of Turkish membership was much more likely five or ten years ago than now. Try telling that to the people who've bought into the xenophobic rubbish that Leave's been shoving through their letterboxes though.

[Christmas Tree 153]

I agree on the most poor countries.

 

I've read that a single veto can prevent membership so I think even a consensus towards turkey joining would be stopped by several countries - Cyprus and Greece to name but two.

I'm not really interested or swayed by the Turkey thing, but it's naive to think that the likes of Cyprus or Greece will have any say, veto or not. Whatever the big boys want will happen and the likes of the smaller countries will be bribed or more likely told what to do.

[Rayvin 1,321]

Now hold on a second.... I am totally accepting of generalizations about Americans and a lot of the time agree... HOWEVER, grouping myself and the rest of my countrymen along with CT is too much and I will not stand for it!

 

but then again, he would probably vote for Trump is he was American...

Well said!

[Rayvin 1,321]

I'm not really interested or swayed by the Turkey thing, but it's naive to think that the likes of Cyprus or Greece will have any say, veto or not. Whatever the big boys want will happen and the likes of the smaller countries will be bribed or more likely told what to do.

Not sure you appreciate how much Greece hates Turkey... Money wouldn't do it. They'd probably leave Europe themselves if Turkey was accepted against their will.

[Christmas Tree 153]

Plus Turkey have distanced themselves politically from "the west" in recent years, what with Erdogan's authoritarianism and various spats with Germany/Merkel and all. I'd say the prospect of Turkish membership was much more likely five or ten years ago than now. Try telling that to the people who've bought into the xenophobic rubbish that Leave's been shoving through their letterboxes though.

try telling that to the Turkish presidents special advisor who was on Newsnight last night. His interview was priceless. The whole country's in shock. Thought Dave was their best mate.

 

[Renton 2,089]

Not sure you appreciate how much Greece hates Turkey... Money wouldn't do it. They'd probably leave Europe themselves if Turkey was accepted against their will.

Yep, in fact part of Greece's debt problem stems from their military spending on their borders wit Turkey. I've worked with academics from Turkey and the feeling is entirely mutual.

[Meenzer 3,959]

try telling that to the Turkish presidents special advisor who was on Newsnight last night. His interview was priceless. The whole country's in shock. Thought Dave was their best mate.

 

 

"We're not going to go there just because you produce Cadbury chocolates and Maltesers, for god's sake." I like him.

 

But seriously, from what I've seen anyone who isn't pro-Erdogan will tell you that their current regime is moving them further and further away from compliance, and it's kind of embarrassing to a lot of regular Turks how the people in charge seem to be struggling with the basics of diplomacy while doing so, never mind EU-compatible stuff like a free media and all. Apparently they're not great at realising that "treading on people's toes" and "getting your own way" tend to be mutually exclusive (unless your name is Putin).

[Renton 2,089]

Just looked on wiki there and I see Boris Johnson's full name is:

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

 

WTF, de Ptfeffel?

 

Why has more not been made of this?

[Howmanheyman 4,452]

 

">

 

Sounds strangely familiar. I've been saying this for a while to the wife when the news is on, funny enough.

[The Fish 773]

I'm surprised the best Prime Minister of his life time doesn't have CT's backing.

[ewerk 6,236]

Just looked on wiki there and I see Boris Johnson's full name is:

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

 

WTF, de Ptfeffel?

 

Why has more not been made of this?

 

Ah good old anti-elitist, man of the people, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

[ewerk 6,236]

The economist, one of the most respected economic publications

 

 

I preferred it before it went high brow.

 

[Meenzer 3,959]

https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-brexit-the-conclusion-c1f56ba4cb70#.k8xyi0rh8

[ewerk 6,236]

Ah FFS. Right, that's me now firmly in the out camp.

 

[Christmas Tree 153]

I'm surprised the best Prime Minister of his life time doesn't have CT's backing.

On this issue I think I've got more in common with Corbyn

[Gemmill 2,752]

On this issue I think I've got more in common with Corbyn

That and the Skechers.