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Club Tropicana (CT remix '18)   Let me take you to the place Where membership's Britain's disgrace Blue flag with lots of stars. Where strangers take you by the hand And welcome you

"Class"   From the bloke that brushed off Trophyshy's redundancy with absolutely no compassion. Not to mention that your favourite hobby is logging on here to wind people up about the things

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More than anything it was the BBC who failed us. The FT isn't read by the sorts of people who needed to be persuaded and the gutter press weren't going to do us any favours. 

 

Kuensberg has a lot to answer for as the BBC's lead political editor. Along with Marr. And whoever it was at the BBC who decided to leave Johnson pretty much unchallenged despite all his bullshit.

 

Piers bloody Morgan is doing a better job of holding the government to account for their bullshit than the BBC are for crying out loud.

Edited by Rayvin
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@alex

the times and telegraph are also behind paywalls these days. they're MSM too

you also said

WERE THE IMPLICATIONS FULLY EXPLAINED BY THE MSM? Were they fuck

again it depends on what you mean by MSM

if you meant probrexit outlets such as the mail, the sun, the telegraph or the spectator, then no - they weren't

if by MSM you mean the likes of the FT, the guardian, the indie or the new statesman, then i'd say yes, they were. 

how do i know? because the information was out there. we all knew there were risks - it's all we have talked about on here for years - the information was out there!

Edited by Dr Gloom
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The MSM reference is a bit of a pisstake on here as it triggers you every time. Use the ‘majority of the mainstream press’ and I think it’s an accurate assessment 

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Yeah, I get that and I am easily triggered because it is a majority of our media, it’s true. And I don’t want to be lumbered with them - there are still a good number of quality publications out there and plenty of honest reporters who warned about so much of this stuff. 

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3 hours ago, ewerk said:

It’s hard to disagree with Gloom.

image.thumb.jpeg.8684ef4d065f0e7dc77c0e3b678271c3.jpeg

Now that is the kind of quality journalism we all need more of in our lives :lol: 

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4 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

@alex

the times and telegraph are also behind paywalls these days. they're MSM too

you also said

WERE THE IMPLICATIONS FULLY EXPLAINED BY THE MSM? Were they fuck

again it depends on what you mean by MSM

if you meant probrexit outlets such as the mail, the sun, the telegraph or the spectator, then no - they weren't

if by MSM you mean the likes of the FT, the guardian, the indie or the new statesman, then i'd say yes, they were. 

how do i know? because the information was out there. we all knew there were risks - it's all we have talked about on here for years - the information was out there!

 

Do you think this board is remotely representative of the British public? It's not. Asking that lass to have understood she was a liable for VAT on  a £200 imported coat based on a paywalled article in the FT 2 years ago is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? And then having the gall to say the BBC shouldn't have reported it because it's not news?

 

Well I've got news for you, it was news for her and it was news to most people! It wouldn't have been news if you had done your job properly (you meaning the MSM, virtually all of it, not you personally). And you're still getting basic facts wrong. 

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It's the narrow world view of most brits that is exposed - we take the piss out of Americans without passports but far too many British people have no interest in anything beyond going to Spain for a fortnight - that's why bemoaning mainly young people being denied freedom of movement meant nowt to leave voters. 

 

Another thing that never entered their minds was simple things like buying things from abroad. I've bought some electronics from the US and from Hong Kong or China in the past and have accepted the ball ache of customs and vat by including it in the price but obviously it being a  thing for EU countries is new. 

 

"If it doesn't affect me it doesn't matter" is the mantra. 

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5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Do you think this board is remotely representative of the British public? It's not. Asking that lass to have understood she was a liable for VAT on  a £200 imported coat based on a paywalled article in the FT 2 years ago is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? And then having the gall to say the BBC shouldn't have reported it because it's not news?

 

Well I've got news for you, it was news for her and it was news to most people! It wouldn't have been news if you had done your job properly (you meaning the MSM, virtually all of it, not you personally). And you're still getting basic facts wrong. 

Do I honestly need to go searching through the past few years of the many UK media publications which published articles warning of the various risks of a Tory/hard Brexit?

Of course I don’t. All you need to do is re-read this thread. We’ve all posted enough links and tweets. The reporting was done - and not just in the FT. 

And thank you for making my point for me. Of course I know this board isn’t representative of the country. The country is full of ill-informed dickheads. Let’s go back to the workers rights story last week - they were warned it was coming! Labour made the point for four years! It’s time people took responsibility for the decisions they make at the ballot box. They voted to get Brexit done and now they’re getting what they wanted. 

Finally, why shouldn’t quality journalism be behind a paywall? People used to pay for newspapers. Accurate, quality journalism is out there if you pay for it. 

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Maybe I’m growing heartless in middle age, I don’t know, but I don’t even feel much sympathy for this bloke

Because how can we feel sympathetic when the person who voted to screw up their own life also screwed up our own and our kids with their vote? I mean, it's not as if there wasn't an entire campaign warning him of the consequences of what he was doing and how much his livelihood would be hit

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13 minutes ago, NJS said:

It's the narrow world view of most brits that is exposed - we take the piss out of Americans without passports but far too many British people have no interest in anything beyond going to Spain for a fortnight - that's why bemoaning mainly young people being denied freedom of movement meant nowt to leave voters. 

 

Another thing that never entered their minds was simple things like buying things from abroad. I've bought some electronics from the US and from Hong Kong or China in the past and have accepted the ball ache of customs and vat by including it in the price but obviously it being a  thing for EU countries is new. 

 

"If it doesn't affect me it doesn't matter" is the mantra. 

This is exactly what I’m getting at.

There was plenty of debate. Plenty of information out there for all to see - not just behind paywalls.

Whole ad campaigns on TV ffs - "Project Fear" warning about the economic hit that we'd take, Brown, Major, Blair and Cameron united (!) in telling people not to vote Leave, warning them not to do it!! And people did it because nationalism gave them a warm glow. So fuck em. (Sorry)

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He was making a living within the EU but thought his life would be better out of it - just like knackers who work in car factories who fucking knew it was dependent on jit manufacturing. Just like the people of Lincolnshire who hated the Eastern European farm workers but wouldn't do the jobs when they left. There was a lot of shite propaganda but fuck me they still have to own it which is why this let's all forgive and forget bullshit leaves me cold. 

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44 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Maybe I’m growing heartless in middle age, I don’t know, but I don’t even feel much sympathy for this bloke

Because how can we feel sympathetic when the person who voted to screw up their own life also screwed up our own and our kids with their vote? I mean, it's not as if there wasn't an entire campaign warning him of the consequences of what he was doing and how much his livelihood would be hit

 

Because there was an entire campaign lying saying the opposite which were more convincing? Partly because the media, collectively and individually, didnt do their job? Take the bus, the media fact checked the £350 million figure was an exaggerated gross figure rather than a net figure. Fine. But who gives a fuck whether its 350 or 200 million, it still sounds like a fortune either way. What the media never explained was that the loss of trade outweighed this by at least a magnitude, or that the payment to the EU amounted to a cup of costa a week each. Amd they rarely explained the benefits of membership (Remain also failed spectacularly on this score). 

 

The bloke made the wrong choice but has had the humility to admit it. I can respect that. You need to embrace the prodigal son to move forward. This guy isn't to blame, he was conned along with millions of others. The people to blame are the corrupt politicians and the media who were complicit in their lies. 

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To the man in the street it's much easier to accept the message 'vote leave and your life will be so much better' as opposed to 'vote remain and we'll keep things the way they are'. It's human nature to want to believe the conman.

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757930

 

Good news for the North East but I can't help think that while other car manufacturers are still warning about the future of their UK plants that Nissan must have agreed a pretty sweet deal with the government to make such a commitment. 

Also, this bit seems odd:

Quote

It came as Nissan paused one of its two production lines in Sunderland on Friday as disruption at ports caused by the pandemic affected its supply chain.

The disruption at the ports is now down to covid and nothing to do with Brexit?

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59 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Also, this bit seems odd:

The disruption at the ports is now down to covid and nothing to do with Brexit?

That narrative was utterly predictable

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The guardian has a more detailed article on the Nissan situation. The supply chain problems are being caused by global shortages of computer chips due to problems producing them, rather than import issues.

 

Also, Nissan are claiming that Brexit has delivered them a competitive advantage because the deal sets out that from 2027, car batteries for all EU/UK cars will need to be produced in the EU or UK. Nissan happens to have a car battery plant right next door to it that supplies it exclusively. So that's allegedly their advantage over everyone else. What I'm confused about is what difference Brexit has made to this (I assume this battery policy is actually an EU directive) unless the UK government were the ones who insisted on it.

Edited by Rayvin
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11 hours ago, Renton said:

 

Because there was an entire campaign lying saying the opposite which were more convincing? Partly because the media, collectively and individually, didnt do their job? Take the bus, the media fact checked the £350 million figure was an exaggerated gross figure rather than a net figure. Fine. But who gives a fuck whether its 350 or 200 million, it still sounds like a fortune either way. What the media never explained was that the loss of trade outweighed this by at least a magnitude, or that the payment to the EU amounted to a cup of costa a week each. Amd they rarely explained the benefits of membership (Remain also failed spectacularly on this score). 

 

The bloke made the wrong choice but has had the humility to admit it. I can respect that. You need to embrace the prodigal son to move forward. This guy isn't to blame, he was conned along with millions of others. The people to blame are the corrupt politicians and the media who were complicit in their lies. 


That £350m figure was immediately debunked by the other side, which put out plenty of its own scary warnings about the economic hit we would take. Brexit Fisherman chose to believe the wrong side. I'd feel sorry and pity for him if his stupid vote only affected him and his family. But it doesn't, does it? It affects me, you and our kids.

Large sections of the media did vote leave’s work for them. I just get irritated (and admittedly defensive) by lazy claims that the media is a single entity when a sizeable chunk of it did the opposite.

I am disappointed with the beeb too. They played their part in this. I just have less sympathy now for the people who fucked us all over with their votes than I had right after the referendum.  People had a lot of time to figure this all out - two elections on top of the referendum. 

And the reason the likes of the Mail and the Sun exist is because there is a demand for it. English exceptionalism runs deep. A nationalist campaign appealed to more people in the country than I felt comfortable admitting existed. Were they sold a lie? Undoubtedly. But they lapped it up despite mounting evidence of the dangers and that’s on them.

Anyway, I’ll leave it there. I had a few glasses of wine last night and was feeling argumentative. I don’t think we actually disagree a great deal. I just have become increasingly embittered with the majority of people who believed the bullshit and voted to put us here. 

Edited by Dr Gloom
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Yeah, I'm struggling to have sympathy for the people who voted leave. Yes, they were lied to, but the slightest amount of critical thinking and common sense would have shown the claims by the Leave campaign to be bullshit. 

 

Part of me is actually enjoying the steady stream of regret coming from Leave voters. 

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Let's not kid ourselves that the odd leave voter here or there lamenting the situation is representative of all of them. I'd wager that same 40% that vote Tory still fundamentally believe this is a downside free exercise in reclaiming sovereignty.

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As usual you have to factor in the proportion of tory voters who are over 65 so don't  give a fuck about businesses or even the economic prospects of their children/grandchildren. 

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2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

The guardian has a more detailed article on the Nissan situation. The supply chain problems are being caused by global shortages of computer chips due to problems producing them, rather than import issues.

 

Also, Nissan are claiming that Brexit has delivered them a competitive advantage because the deal sets out that from 2027, car batteries for all EU/UK cars will need to be produced in the EU or UK. Nissan happens to have a car battery plant right next door to it that supplies it exclusively. So that's allegedly their advantage over everyone else. What I'm confused about is what difference Brexit has made to this (I assume this battery policy is actually an EU directive) unless the UK government were the ones who insisted on it.

 

It's not Brexit benefit, Nissan would have had the same benefits 8n the EU. Brexit will still impact thir JIT supply chain but I'm guessing they've done the sums and the removal of tariffs keeps them competitive, plus the deal keeps us in close alignment in regulation in this sector. It still would have been better for them had we not left though.

 

What I'm hoping is that "success" stories like this will encourage the tories to keep to level playing field rules on workers rights. If they are cut, the EU can reintroduce tariffs which would be disastrous for Nissan. So this is certainly a good new story. 

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2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:


That £350m figure was immediately debunked by the other side, which put out plenty of its own scary warnings about the economic hit we would take. Brexit Fisherman chose to believe the wrong side. I'd feel sorry and pity for him if his stupid vote only affected him and his family. But it doesn't, does it? It affects me, you and our kids.

Large sections of the media did vote leave’s work for them. I just get irritated (and admittedly defensive) by lazy claims that the media is a single entity when a sizeable chunk of it did the opposite.

I am disappointed with the beeb too. They played their part in this. I just have less sympathy now for the people who fucked us all over with their votes than I had right after the referendum.  People had a lot of time to figure this all out - two elections on top of the referendum. 

And the reason the likes of the Mail and the Sun exist is because there is a demand for it. English exceptionalism runs deep. A nationalist campaign appealed to more people in the country than I felt comfortable admitting existed. Were they sold a lie? Undoubtedly. But they lapped it up despite mounting evidence of the dangers and that’s on them.

Anyway, I’ll leave it there. I had a few glasses of wine last night and was feeling argumentative. I don’t think we actually disagree a great deal. I just have become increasingly embittered with the majority of people who believed the bullshit and voted to put us here. 

 

Aye fair enough, I do feel pretty much the same way but I don't know where bitterness will get us. We have to work with what we've got and just hope somehow things will get better. 

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