Positive Wonga Article

[Gemmill 34422]

Canny scary that the man tasked with the ultimate authority over the Wonga Dispute is the tactless idiot Kinnear. Chances of this being handled sensitively?

[Christmas Tree 3997]

I take it the problem is Virgin and Barclays offer specific Islam friendly products and Wonga don't?....

Had this discussion of sorts with a Muslim this morning and he had no logical explanation as to why Wonga was different.

[trophyshy 6434]

Allah (God) is the owner of all wealth. Humans are merely the trustees of wealth, which belongs to Allah. Humans must manage wealth according to Allah's commands, which promote justice and prohibit certain activities, including wasting or destroying resources. Muslims have the right to enjoy whatever wealth they acquire and spend in sharia-compliant ways.

 

Material pursuits must be balanced with an individual's spiritual needs. A Muslim's economic activities and pursuit of wealth should balance with the spiritual aspects of life. Economic activity conducted according to sharia is, itself, an act of worship, but finding balance between economic activities and spirituality is key. A Muslim is expected to seek moderation in the material world — to avoid being either miserly or too materialistic.

 

An individual's needs must be balanced with society's needs. A Muslim needs to consider society in general when enjoying Allah's bounties. These considerations include promoting justice in all economic activities, remembering that all people have mutual responsibility for all others, and using the earth's resources wisely.

 

Economic transactions should take place within a just, responsible, free-market economy. Islam does not restrict economic activity but instead directs it toward being responsible to other people, to the earth, and to Allah. Islam allows for a free-market economy where supply and demand are decided in the market, but it directs the function of the market mechanism by imposing specific laws and ethics. A primary purpose for imposing these laws and ethics is to promote social justice: a balance in which wealth is not accumulated only by a few while most others suffer.

 

In support of these principles, sharia prohibits business transactions based on the following:

 

Interest: Riba, the Arabic word for interest, means to increase, grow, or multiply into more than what would be due. Riba is prohibited by Islam because it creates societal injustice; in a riba-based transaction, the owner of the wealth gets return without making any effort, and the borrower carries all the risk.

 

Uncertainty: The Arabic word gharar means uncertainty or to cheat or delude. Transactions based on gharar are unclear or ambiguous; not everyone involved knows what to expect and can make an informed decision. Gharar exists when two parties enter a contract and one party lacks complete information or when both parties lack control over the underlying transaction.

 

Gambling: Two Arabic words — maysir and qimar — refer to transactions that involve gambling. Maysir is the acquisition of wealth by chance instead of by effort. Qimar refers to a game of chance. Both types of transactions are based on uncertainty; no one can know how a gamble will pay off.

 

Prohibited products and industries: Islam prohibits products and industries that it considers harmful to society and a threat to social responsibility. Examples include alcohol, pork, prostitution, pornography, tobacco, and any products based on uncertainty or gambling.

 

In light of the above, he's a massive hypocrite (i) for coming to work in such an industry in the first place (wealth in the hands of the few, promotes gambling, sells booze, etc etc) and (ii) working for a cunt like Ashley (who is almost the devil incarnate in regard to the guidance above).

 

Assuming he has in the past been happy to turn a blind eye to all of the above, this can only be viewed as a strategy for more money which makes him a treble, possibly quadruple, hypocrite.

 

As there are no ethics in football anymore then I have no clue where this will go, but most likely the team, and fans, will ultimately suffer.

 

Allahu Akbar, btw.

Edited July 17, 2013 by trophyshy

[JawD 31]

[Gemmill 34422]

Had this discussion of sorts with a Muslim this morning and he had no logical explanation as to why Wonga was different.

To be fair, if had had one it might well have sailed over your head so I can't accept this into evidence, I'm afraid.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

From twitter

 

 

Papiss Cisse fined for refusing to wear club sponsor Wonga - initial £5,000 rising to £47,987,567,324 if he hasn't paid by Friday #NUFC

[Monroe Transfer 0]

Struggling to understand why this couldn't have been resolved one way or the other weeks (or even months) ago. It shouldn't drag on as long as it has.

[desmondTUTU 0]

Struggling to understand why this couldn't have been resolved one way or the other weeks (or even months) ago. It shouldn't drag on as long as it has.

 

Im sure a few people have tried asking Offside this question.

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

#fuckreligion

[desmondTUTU 0]

This is absolutely nothing to do with religion. He had no problem with Virgin Money.

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

He's using it as an excuse. #fuckreligion

[Andrew 4217]

hashtags don't work on here, you aren't on twitter

[acrossthepond 703]

Tough to decide where I come down on this one. For my part, I would find it incredibly uncomfortable to be asked to play in a strip that advertises alcohol, pork products, or, yes, usurious interest such as Wonga - but I can't shake the feeling that Cisse's beliefs are not what has actually prompted this dispute. He knew Wonga would be sponsoring us well in advance, and that meant having their names on our shirts. If that wouldn't work for him, he could have made arrangements to leave at the end of the season, not raised the issue two days before our pre-season tour began.

 

The cynic in me wonders if this issue will be resolved with a nice new contract for Cisse and (perhaps) an unbranded shirt. If it's a play for more money, well, he absolutely has the club over a barrel, so he'll get what he's after.

[desmondTUTU 0]

For the umpteenth time, It has nothing to do with interest rates or loans. If it did, he would have objected to Virgin Money.

[acrossthepond 703]

Because a bank and a payday loan service are equivalent, right? You can tell by the different reactions on here to the Virgin Money deal and the Wonga deal that they are not the same thing. One provides a useful service to everyone and the other preys on the poor, weak, and stupid by taking advantage of their financial predicaments.

[desmondTUTU 0]

Loans with added interest payments is the issue regards Islam/Muslims. Not the rate itself or the type of person using the service.

[ChezGiven 0]

Because a bank and a payday loan service are equivalent, right? You can tell by the different reactions on here to the Virgin Money deal and the Wonga deal that they are not the same thing. One provides a useful service to everyone and the other preys on the poor, weak, and stupid by taking advantage of their financial predicaments.

Well can you not explain for us? I didn't think it was an ethical position, I thought it was a moral one? Sharia law prohibits usury which is the collection and payment of interest. Which is what Virgin money do. Is it not inconsistent?

[ewerk 26284]

Because a bank and a payday loan service are equivalent, right? You can tell by the different reactions on here to the Virgin Money deal and the Wonga deal that they are not the same thing. One provides a useful service to everyone and the other preys on the poor, weak, and stupid by taking advantage of their financial predicaments.

You'll know more than most on here but what is the teaching? I know this is a very specific situation and much of Islam is very much open to interpretation but is there a widespread view on this?

Edited July 17, 2013 by ewerk

[ChezGiven 0]

Or the other way round, ethics v morals, whichever it is

[@yourservice 67]

[scoobos 297]

In all seriousness, I'm not Muslim, but theres no fookin way I'm buying a shirt with Wonga on it - its a despicable company and I'm entitled to that view as much as the people who don't think its a problem. A mother with 2 children who's husband has died in the war went public on not eating for a week to feed her child and having to go to Wonga to buy school equipment - yes its a bit worlds smallest violin, but I don't buy that people "choose" to use these sharks, they do it through desperation.

 

I think living down south has opened my eyes to the horrible stereotypes that a lot have of the north. Newcastle and Wonga sends an awful message imo, it's embarrassing. I take the argument of "people choose to use Wonga" the same way as the people I work with who seriously believe that if people don't want to be "dole scum" they should move to London... Sounds great, but has no value on Family, Friends and social responsibility to your area of birth.

 

This whole line to Leeds/London is just an excuse to continue to deprivate the North for "the City's" wealth and GDP. In 10 years time it will be, well if Leeds if fucked, you've no excuse to come down to London etc.

 

there are 2 masseratis and a Ferrari on my road - recession my arse, redistribution of wealth more like - Bank bailout cost us about 6 grand a head. In Australia , they bailed out the people with a 2000 dollar "stimulus cheque" that had to be spent not banked for each and every tax payer, we just took out of the public fund and gave it to the richest institutions in the western world.

 

 

Oh gawd, I've gone on a rant again.... <--- exit stage right. I'll edit most of this rant out tomorrow

[acrossthepond 703]

By the letter of the law, desmondTUTU is right. Loans which generate interest of any kind are forbidden in Islam. Some scholars have tried to argue that interest-bearing loans for "consumption" or usage are unacceptable because they would put the borrower in a desperate position (like Wonga loans, for example) while commercial interest-bearing loans are acceptable because the profits of the business started with the loan would enable the borrower to repay it, but as the Qur'an makes no distinction, they are very much in the minority, and in countries where the Sharia is strictly observed, the system of "Islamic banking" which does not involve interest in any way is prevalent.

 

If Cisse is framing his objection on purely religious grounds, then I agree he doesn't really have a leg to stand on because Virgin charge interest just like Wonga. But I think there is both a moral and an ethical difference between what Virgin does and what Wonga does. I'd be all right with wearing a shirt with a bank's name on it, but not one that promotes Wonga. In my religion there is no difference between the two, but in my heart there is, and if that's the same way that Cisse feels, then I'm proud of him for taking a stand. But as I already said in my previous post, I wonder if it really is.

[RobinRobin 9197]

As I understand it, but I may be wrong, he is saying that it is against his religious beliefs for interest to be charged on loans. If that is the case, then I cannot see that he has a valid argument. When one gets into moral arguments about the amount of interest, that is a different argument, but it does not appear to be being raised here. On that basis, there is no difference between Virgin Money, Northern Rock or Wonga.

 

I do not like that Wonga is sponsoring our Club. On that basis, I can make a choice about buying a top or other merchandise. I doubt whether his contract allows him control over the sponsorship on the shirt he wears, in which case he has no legal argument to refuse to wear it.

Even if Wonga and the Club agreed to him wearing something else, I think I have read that the Premier League would not allow different shirts, so that may impact further.

 

I am not sure where this is going, but it may be that we are yet another striker down, with no sign of anyone being signed at all. Oh joy!

[desmondTUTU 0]

I'm over 1000 percent sure that wonga ain't that bad.

[Gemmill 34422]

In an industry that's completely lacking in them, I'm struggling to have a problem with a bloke standing up for his principles.