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1 hour ago, adios said:

I thought the point being argued was that Corbyn went after all British Zionists with his comments and therefore loosely (if my definition and @ewerk's figure are correct) the entire British-Jewish population.

 

It's a political ideology backed by a large number of a particular religion. I accept that there is an almost race like status around Judiasm but it remains an 'ism'.

 

Corbyn regularly holds council with anti-zionist Jewish people so i think it's safe to assume that his interests and categorisations are political rather than racial.

 

17 minutes ago, ewerk said:

At best it was a poor choice of language. At worst it’s anti-semitism.

Could his refusal to adopt the full IHRA code be because some of it would see himself be thrown out of the party should evidence come to light?

 

It all feels like a premise for the establishment of the centrist party which will undoubtedly ensure Tory dominance going forward.

 

But whatever. If i read something clearly anti Semitic from Corbyn then fair enough, but Anti Zionist isn't the same thing. I mean think it through ffs. If Zionist = Jew you wouldn't need both words.

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27 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm not disputing that he's anti-zionist. The pattern is clear there.

So he is anti-Jewish people believing they have a right to a homeland?

 

I really would like someone to clarify Corbyn's definition of Zionism.  And where is this 90% figure coming from?  It feels like the definition is a huge issue here.

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Um, no. I'm saying the opposite. Jewish people could have had a homeland without creating Israel, which was done in a way that was undeniably dismissive of the humanity and needs of the people already living there, presumably because they weren't white enough to be important.

 

Creating Israel was at best, unintentionally racist. This is not the same statement as 'Jewish people having a homeland is a racist endeavour'

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18 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Um, no. I'm saying the opposite. Jewish people could have had a homeland without creating Israel, which was done in a way that was undeniably dismissive of the humanity and needs of the people already living there, presumably because they weren't white enough to be important.

 

Creating Israel was at best, unintentionally racist. This is not the same statement as 'Jewish people having a homeland is a racist endeavour'

 

 

So how was Israel created?

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49 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Um, no. I'm saying the opposite. Jewish people could have had a homeland without creating Israel, which was done in a way that was undeniably dismissive of the humanity and needs of the people already living there, presumably because they weren't white enough to be important.

 

Creating Israel was at best, unintentionally racist. This is not the same statement as 'Jewish people having a homeland is a racist endeavour'

So you’re anti-Zionist?

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50 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Um, no. I'm saying the opposite. Jewish people could have had a homeland without creating Israel, which was done in a way that was undeniably dismissive of the humanity and needs of the people already living there, presumably because they weren't white enough to be important.

 

Creating Israel was at best, unintentionally racist. This is not the same statement as 'Jewish people having a homeland is a racist endeavour'

But now it exists and we have to deal with reality not an alternate history. As such do these people not have a right to live where they live, to go home, in spite of being against how their government opresses people? Because they can still be defined as Zionists.

 

And yes, I realise using the phrases 'go home' and 'these people' is not a good look but I can't be arsed changing it <_<   

 

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2 minutes ago, adios said:

But now it exists and we have to deal with reality not an alternate history. As such do these people not have a right to live where they live, to go home, in spite of being against how their government opresses people? Because they can still be defined as Zionists.

 

And yes, I realise using the phrases 'go home' and 'these people' is not a good look but I can't be arsed changing it <_<   

 

 

Absolutely they do. In my opinion. I've said previously on many occasions in the terrorist thread that the whole issue needs to be accepted for pragmatic reasons.

 

The point remains that taking a position against Zionism is not, looked at literally, racist. Islam contains within it a political ideology. Are we not allowed to criticise and reject that without being termed racists? It calls for the Islamation of all states. In effect, the Muslim 'homeland' would be the whole world.

 

Please note that i am not saying all or even most Muslims believe or want this. In fact i think less than half do.

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OK so by @Rayvin's definition I am anti-Zionist and by @ewerk's I am a Zionist. Glad we've cleared that up. :razz:

 

But more importantly, Corbyn is claiming the former, so unless we have evidence he's lying, this incident does not make him a racist.

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I dont even have an agenda in defending Corbyn anymore, i want him gone too - but this anti-semitism stuff is doing my fucking head in. I read an article in the Guardian the other day from someone who apparently backed Corbyn through every other anti-Semitism contention but drew the line at this one. Not the anti-Semitism definition, not Ken Livingstone, not the fucking mural, this statement. This statement was just beyond the pale, apparently.

 

FFS.

 

 

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