Politics

[NJS 3960]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I thought we'd gotten to the point where LGBT rights weren't a controversial issue. Presumably this is all in the name of "impartiality".

He's wrapped it up in the supposed current "debate" on trans rights which I don't think is any different - what's wrong with saying anyone who denies rights is a bigot? 

 

The BBC has a record on this even before now - inviting a fuckwit like Nigel Lawson to oppose an expert on climate change being a classic. 

[Alex 30258]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

So it turns out that Starmer gave Corbyn advance notice of his speech that he wouldn't tolerate anyone who minimised anti-semitism within the party and Corbyn knowingly released a statement doing just that. Len McCluskey can talk about a divided party but it's Corbyn doing the dividing.

Him and McCluskey. 

[ewerk 26192]

15 hours ago, ewerk said:

The worry is that Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al fuck off and start their own party and McCluskey bankrolls them. That sort of thing would guarantee another two decades of Tory rule.

And just one hour later:

 

[ewerk 26192]

Not to worry, Len McCluskey has calmed the situation by telling Jewish Labour party member Peter Mandelson to 'go and count his gold'.

[Dr Gloom 19746]

fucking hell 

[Dr Gloom 19746]

get big len in front of the cameras - if that doesn't diffuse things, i don't know what will

[Toonpack 6766]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

Not to worry, Len McCluskey has calmed the situation by telling Jewish Labour party member Peter Mandelson to 'go and count his gold'.

Seriously 🤣Fucking hell

Edited October 30, 2020 by Toonpack

[Dr Gloom 19746]

5 hours ago, ewerk said:

And just one hour later:

 

i've been thinking about your point. isn't history just repeating itself? in the 80s militant were kicked out and then labour became electable. 

[PaddockLad 14528]

 

[Monkeys Fist 38586]

43 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

Looks cosy in Greece this time of year. 

[PaddockLad 14528]

25 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Looks cosy in Greece this time of year. 

 

"charity is a coat you wear, twice a year"

 

the fuckin cynical cunts...

[ewerk 26192]

MBEs for everyone on the audience!

 

Payrises? Fuck off, you plebs.

[ewerk 26192]

So while rumours of a second lockdown whirl around the DUP don’t let that distract them from the big political story of the day.

 

[Dr Gloom 19746]

Searing piece by Rawnsley here on Jezza 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/01/mr-corbyns-self-pity-betrays-the-victims-of-antisemitism-scandal

[PaddockLad 14528]

Seems to me that the result of the Labour AS affair will be the closing down of any mainstream criticism of Israel re the Palestinian situation in the media. Very liberal Jewish folk like David Baddiel (who I like and respect) always say that they object & criticise but you rarely see it . As for the rest of us, who’s going to stick their head above the parapet now?  That was always one of Corbyn’s main problems, you go into pro Palestine groups and I’ve no doubt you will find a bunch of foaming mouthed anti semites. The Israeli policy towards Palestine has been a murderous abomination for 70 years. Does that go to the heart of the Israeli state or does it dwell within the hearts of the population who elect those who carry out the policy? It’s almost certainly both, but is it anti Semitic to suggest that? 

Edited November 2, 2020 by PaddockLad

[Rayvin 4949]

10 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

Seems to me that the result of the Labour AS affair will be the closing down of any mainstream criticism of Israel re the Palestinian situation in the media. Very liberal Jewish folk like David Baddiel (who I like and respect) always say that they object & criticise but you rarely see it . As for the rest of us, who’s going to stick their head above the parapet now?  That was always one of Corbyn’s main problems, you go into pro Palestine groups and I’ve no doubt you will find a bunch of foaming mouthed anti semites. The Israeli policy towards Palestine has been a murderous abomination for 70 years. Does that go to the heart of the Israeli state or does it dwell within the hearts of the population who elect those who carry out the policy? It’s almost certainly both, but is it anti Semitic to suggest that? 

 

Probably all true - but in the end it isn't our problem. It should be, and under a proper democracy it would be possible to explore and criticise where appropriate - but the UK isn't a proper democracy. It's a series of narratives that you have to avoid being on the wrong end of if you ever want to get into power. It is what it is, and I've learned in the past few months that having any view which isn't hard boiled in a pragmatic 'power at all costs' approach is simply 'sixth form debating club' politics.

[Dr Gloom 19746]

do i detect a whiff of english irony i need to learn about?

there is plenty of room in our democracy - and the labour party - to support the palestinian people and criticise the state of israel.

just don't leet you party be over run by unelectable trot antisemites if you want to win an election and improve the lives of ordinary people. 

[Rayvin 4949]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

do i detect a whiff of english irony i need to learn about?

there is plenty of room in our democracy - and the labour party - to support the palestinian people and criticise the state of israel.

just don't leet you party be over run by unelectable trot antisemites if you want to win an election and improve the lives of ordinary people. 

 

You think Starmer could come out and criticise Israel for anything? Or anyone from Labour in fact? I doubt it, they'll now have to shut the fuck up for their own good, or a media evisceration will await.

 

In the end, I actually agree with you on this anyway - principles are dead, pragmatism has to reign. In general, that's how I think Labour need to operate if they want to win power. I won't be joining them though (albeit this isn't the issue that represented the final straw for me) - back to the sixth form debating club for me

[Dr Gloom 19746]

34 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You think Starmer could come out and criticise Israel for anything? Or anyone from Labour in fact? I doubt it, they'll now have to shut the fuck up for their own good, or a media evisceration will await.

 

In the end, I actually agree with you on this anyway - principles are dead, pragmatism has to reign. In general, that's how I think Labour need to operate if they want to win power. I won't be joining them though (albeit this isn't the issue that represented the final straw for me) - back to the sixth form debating club for me

 

criticising the israeli government is absolutely fair game as far as i'm concerned. just don't choose to die on a hill with the antisemites.

principles aren't dead. but the EHRC report is damning. don't pretend it's overblown when an independent body has found otherwise. accept it for what it is, try and draw a line in the sand and move on. that is the pragmatic thing to do. and yes, learn to be pragmatic. this unwillingness to bend on any issue isn't principled opposition. it is sixth form politics.   

 

[ewerk 26192]

46 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

all i wanted to do was talk about abusing jews . mean thats what liberal western democracies are for. Because i  said i thought that hitler had the right idea i get verbally abused i get called a cunt. and everything. i dont need this. i dont deserve it. So thanks for having me. enjoyed my time here. See yer all around

 

[Rayvin 4949]

4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

criticising the israeli government is absolutely fair game as far as i'm concerned. just don't choose to die on a hill with the antisemites.

principles aren't dead. but the EHRC report is damning. don't pretend it's overblown when an independent body has found otherwise. accept it for what it is, try and draw a line in the sand and move on. that is the pragmatic thing to do. and yes, learn to be pragmatic. this unwillingness to bend on any issue isn't principled opposition. it is sixth form politics.   

 

 

Yeah I thought I'd characterised your position pretty fairly  

[Dr Gloom 19746]

12 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yeah I thought I'd characterised your position pretty fairly  

you can be principled and pragmatic. 

the dogma that corbyn, and his followers, preach is self-defeating, pig-headed and ultimately enables more tory rule. in fact, for that reason, i'd say corbyn has been just as bad for the country as cameron, osborne and johnson/cummings.

we have never needed competent opposition more. it looks like we finally have it in starmer

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 19746]

10 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

parky?

[Rayvin 4949]

40 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

you can be principled and pragmatic. 

the dogma that corbyn, and his followers, preach is self-defeating, pig-headed and ultimately enables more tory rule. in fact, i'd say corbyn has been just as bad for the country as cameron, osborne and johnson/cummings.

we have never needed competent opposition more. it looks like we finally have it in starmer

 

 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Milliband also managed to enable more Tory rule. Let's not pretend that everything was going swimmingly for Labour only for Corbyn to show up and wreck everything - he only got in at all because the centre left in the party was completely bereft of ideas and direction. Milliband's loss was what delivered the mandate for the referendum in the first place.

 

On the rest of it, I hope you're right. Starmer is indeed competent. He won't win of course, but he's competent. It's a shame about his u-turn on the EU but pragmatism is all, I suppose.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 4949]

47 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

 

In fairness, this isn't even the hill I chose to die on  I've read the EHRC exec summary, looks fair and measured to me. The most significantly damning aspect was the fact that Labour's sexual harassment policy/procedures were far more rigorous than it's antisemitism ones. That's clearly not acceptable.