Politics

[ewerk 26271]

Anti-Irish discrimination was obviously a big problem in days gone by and was clearly recognised as discrimination. The point I think Gloom is trying to make is that Jewish discrimination isn’t seen as valid as other forms of discrimination. The main reason being IMO is that Jews are viewed as generally rich and successful therefore it can’t be racism/discrimination because it isn’t ‘punching down’.

[Dr Gloom 19801]

This is Baddiel’s take on the mural 

[Renton 17743]

6 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Anti-Irish discrimination was obviously a big problem in days gone by and was clearly recognised as discrimination. The point I think Gloom is trying to make is that Jewish discrimination isn’t seen as valid as other forms of discrimination. The main reason being IMO is that Jews are viewed as generally rich and successful therefore it can’t be racism/discrimination because it isn’t ‘punching down’.

Fair enough. I guess i was taking exceptions to the idea that other religions are 'just' religions, seems to be a bit of exceptionalism going on there. Most religions are entwined with history, politics, and heritage. 

[Dr Gloom 19801]

I can only speak to my own experiences. I was on the receiving end of antisemitic bulling at school which had nothing to do with religion. 

I agree with someone on the previous page who said identity isn’t that important but my Jewishness has always been about my culture and heritage and nothing at all to do with religion. And despite that I’d still have been off to the gas chambers if I’d been unfortunate enough to have lived in the wrong place at the wrong time. 
 

To ewerk’s point, Baddiel covers it pretty perfectly 

[Dr Gloom 19801]

[ewerk 26271]

9 minutes ago, Renton said:

Fair enough. I guess i was taking exceptions to the idea that other religions are 'just' religions, seems to be a bit of exceptionalism going on there. Most religions are entwined with history, politics, and heritage. 

Could you tell that the average Catholic was one just by looking at him? Many Jews share physical characteristics due to long periods of segregation throughout history which lends weight to the idea that Jews are a race rather than simply a religion.

[Dr Gloom 19801]

21 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Anti-Irish discrimination was obviously a big problem in days gone by and was clearly recognised as discrimination. The point I think Gloom is trying to make is that Jewish discrimination isn’t seen as valid as other forms of discrimination. The main reason being IMO is that Jews are viewed as generally rich and successful therefore it can’t be racism/discrimination because it isn’t ‘punching down’.

It’s why there was such a blind spot among Corbyn’s wing.
 

During the row over the IHRA definition of antisemitism, the awful Ash Sarkar said “this is where we must think very carefully about what the work of anti-racism is. Antisemitism, at this point in history, is primarily experienced as prejudice and hostility towards Jews as Jews, largely without aspects of material dispossession (such as structural unemployment) that manifest in other forms of racism.”

In other words, it comes down to money - she has worded it cleverly but essentially what she’s saying is Jews are rich enough for antisemitism to be considered less important  than other forms of racism. 

And I didn’t even notice this speech by Dawn Buttler at the Labour Party conference at the time. (This is one of many staggering examples in the book)

 

[Gemmill 34387]

I agree with the title, I don't feel the need to read any further. 😇

[Rayvin 4963]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

This is Baddiel’s take on the mural 

 

This is useful in that it covers both my view and Corbyn. What I can say though, is that he is overlooking one possibility that at least speaks for my view on the situation - Baddiel sets out that Jews being targeted is considered lower priority than other groups for left wing people - but I wouldn't say that's the case for me. When I looked at that mural and saw the rich oligarchs who run the world, I didn't give a fuck about their race or ethnic markers. Not because antisemitism isn't as significant an issue for me as islamophobia or general racism, but because I don't think racism, sexism, bigotry and so on are anywhere near as important to tackle as global economic inequality and the sheer amount of power that puts in the hands of very few people. I can't speak for Corbyn, but I don't remember him spending a great deal of time on identity politics either - he's possibly in a boat not too dissimilar to mine.

 

To someone who considers identity politics a sideshow and a distraction from what actually matters, that mural isn't going to look like much beyond an acknowledgement that super rich are the true enemy. And I can say that honestly, because that's completely how I saw it. I can see his point absolutely, and he might have Corbyn bang to rights - but for clarity, his explanation of why I (for instance) haven't recognised the antisemitic nature of that mural is off the mark.

 

Truthfully, I do care about these issues - I just don't think any of the root problems that cause them can be solved without a complete overhaul of the system. And until we get that complete overhaul, anything else is a distraction. Maybe this view is a good example of white privilege tbf, that I can afford to take such a line because I'm not being immediately persecuted by these issues. I could accept that view absolutely. But even so, it doesn't really change how I see it.

 

Really interesting to discuss this though, it's been enlightening even just in terms of helping me understand the wider context around both my views and those of others.

[Meenzer 14030]

 

17 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Really interesting to discuss this though, it's been enlightening even just in terms of helping me understand the wider context around both my views and those of others.

 

As the old saying goes, before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares? You're a mile away and you've got his shoes.

 

[ewerk 26271]

25 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Truthfully, I do care about these issues - I just don't think any of the root problems that cause them can be solved without a complete overhaul of the system. And until we get that complete overhaul, anything else is a distraction 

We’re not going to end antisemitism any more than we’ve ended racism. But we have reduced racism and that’s been largely due to education and that’s what Baddiel is attempting to do here. The fact that an intelligent, politically aware gent such as yourself saw nothing wrong with that mural says more about a lack of awareness among the general public than anything else.

[Dr Gloom 19801]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

I agree with the title, I don't feel the need to read any further. 😇

Jews don’t count. Gingers count less 

[Gemmill 34387]

Bad news for ginger Jews. 

[Rayvin 4963]

43 minutes ago, ewerk said:

We’re not going to end antisemitism any more than we’ve ended racism. But we have reduced racism and that’s been largely due to education and that’s what Baddiel is attempting to do here. The fact that an intelligent, politically aware gent such as yourself saw nothing wrong with that mural says more about a lack of awareness among the general public than anything else.

 

Suppose I wouldn't argue with that but then as I've said, I'm not "politically aware" in the same sense that the progressive left are politically aware. And I think that Gloom genuinely thinks (or did think) that this was my political alignment - which appears to have been why this particular back and forth has run on as long as it has.

[Dr Gloom 19801]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

Suppose I wouldn't argue with that but then as I've said, I'm not "politically aware" in the same sense that the progressive left are politically aware. And I think that Gloom genuinely thinks (or did think) that this was my political alignment - which appears to have been why this particular back and forth has run on as long as it has.

I knew you had issues with virtual signalling social justice warriors but I did have you down as a Corbyn supporter, yeah, at least in the early days (edit - as was I incidentally).
 

You didn’t seem to accept that antisemitism was an issue in the Labour Party - or at least you suggested it was overblown, not a big deal etc - a view shared by many progressives. I think you eventually conceded it was a genuine problem, and not just a media conspiracy, but you took some persuading.
 

I’m sure there are plenty of people on here who still disagree with me, but probably can’t be arsed to get into it (I don’t blame them tbh) but that’s why I posted the excerpts from Baddiel’s book. Baddiel does a much better job than I managed to explain why Jews were so appalled by Corbyn and his supporters. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[The Fish 8986]

12 hours ago, ewerk said:

We’re not going to end antisemitism any more than we’ve ended racism. But we have reduced racism and that’s been largely due to education and that’s what Baddiel is attempting to do here. The fact that an intelligent, politically aware gent such as yourself saw nothing wrong with that mural says more about a lack of awareness among the general public than anything else.

Not with that attitude.

[ewerk 26271]

It wasn't an observation, it was a promise.

[PaddockLad 14576]

 

[ewerk 26271]

Or David Cameron's dodgy dealings for that matter.

[Alex 30368]

I see racism has more or less been put right in the UK now. That’s a relief 

[ewerk 26271]

Nothing like a good ol' government review to end racism. Especially when you cherry pick a black man to lead it who has long been on the record stating that institutional racism doesn't exist in the UK.

[PaddockLad 14576]

Have come to the conclusion the tabloid media are the most racist institution we have...but thats only second to their misogyny  

 

 

[Meenzer 14030]

I feel sorry for the racists. Imagine being told you don't exist? Poor souls.

 

[Sonatine 9985]

 

[Isegrim 8870]

Honestly, what the fuck is going on nowadays.