Asprilla 96 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 3 minutes ago, Renton said: But yourself and family are inevitably exposed to external forces which dictate your welfare. It goes back to this belief there is no such thing of society you seem to embrace. I know for a fact there is, and if society is better, my family will also be better. It's a fact that populations with comprehensive social care and welfare (such as Scandinavia) have the greatest happiness index scores. Countries which follow the US model, not so much. I’m not against the NHS or a certain amount of welfare. Society does better when each member feels a sense of responsibility. People think that football is a good metaphor for socialism but IMO it’s a better metaphor for what I’m saying. if each player gives their best then the team benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34409 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Just defected to Labour. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34409 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Ten minutes before PMQs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34409 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Asprilla said: if each player gives their best then the team benefits. Not sure anyone would disagree with this, but we need to enable people to give their best. At the moment, our 'best' tends to come from very well off circles who get in by default, and some particularly exceptional/lucky middle class ranked people. And a very, very few exceptional AND lucky lower-middle/working class groups. That's not the best we have to offer, it's just a combination of the ones who get all the opportunities by virtue of social status, and a few really exceptional people. I'd rather we were filtering out the trash from the upper echelons who aren't there for any merit and replacing them with far more capable, harder working people from further down the chain. Then we might be closer to 'giving our best'. Do you think Boris Johnson remotely represents 'our best'? Or Cameron. Or the Queen and her offspring? Why are these people dominating our society? It's not meritocracy, that's for fucking sure. Edited January 19, 2022 by Rayvin 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17744 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Asprilla said: I’m not against the NHS or a certain amount of welfare. Society does better when each member feels a sense of responsibility. People think that football is a good metaphor for socialism but IMO it’s a better metaphor for what I’m saying. if each player gives their best then the team benefits. Forget the shit metaphors (which I have never heard of btw), let's look at empirical evidence. Why are people from countries with advanced socialist societies happier than those from more capitalist societies you espouse? I don't expect you to answer btw, as you showed yesterday you are incapable of debate or backing up any of your viewpoints (look at the Labour front bench lol), but it remains a simple fact that capitalism makes more people miserable than Scandinavian style socialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17744 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Gemmill said: Fuckin ouch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: Yes but then large, widespread changes get made to the country that fuck over your plans and family, and at that point your realise that "just be happy and focus on yourself" is all well and good when the shit that's being done isn't touching you, but it's a rather different story when you are one of the people being fucked over. Now, that wasn't news to me tbh which is why I've had the views I've had over the course of my life - but Brexit did rather reinforce the point of what you get if you let complete fucking idiots built careers on packs of lies without calling it out. If we just look the other way, we get fucked. We have a patriotic duty to look dead at them, as often as we can. We need to have institutions which scrutinise them, and we need to hold up those institutions and support them. It is a civic duty to remain informed. i have adapted whenever events outside of my control have negatively impacted on my life and there have been many its not easy and I have sympathy for anyone going through hard times but the fact remains that if you wait for the government or the world to take pity on you then you’re screwed life is hard, we’re always a scarily small distance away from killing each other for food Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Asprilla said: i have adapted whenever events outside of my control have negatively impacted on my life and there have been many its not easy and I have sympathy for anyone going through hard times but the fact remains that if you wait for the government or the world to take pity on you then you’re screwed life is hard, we’re always a scarily small distance away from killing each other for food See, the way you're talking there makes it sound like you think I'm a child that doesn't understand what life is about. I am fully fucking aware what the deal with life is. The only possible meaning I have been able to discern for 'life' is that the journey/suffering is the entire point of it. I don't believe it's 'to love', I don't believe it's 'to be happy' - it's the fucking grind or it's nothing at all. I'm not looking for the government to take pity on me. I don't need it to. I'm trying to express my compassion and empathy for others, so that I can be part of a society that 'takes pity' on those who are struggling, which supports and helps them. I am trying to be part of a system that is less brutal and depressing than the one we live in. We don't need to make life worse than it already is by electing useless fucking governments that actively make things more difficult. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 5 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Not sure anyone would disagree with this, but we need to enable people to give their best. At the moment, our 'best' tends to come from very well off circles who get in by default, and some particularly exceptional/lucky middle class ranked people. And a very, very few exceptional AND lucky lower-middle/working class groups. That's not the best we have to offer, it's just a combination of the ones who get all the opportunities by virtue of social status, and a few really exceptional people. I'd rather we were filtering out the trash from the upper echelons who aren't there for any merit and replacing them with far more capable, harder working people from further down the chain. Then we might be closer to 'giving our best'. Do you think Boris Johnson remotely represents 'our best'? Or Cameron. Or the Queen and her offspring? Why are these people dominating our society? It's not meritocracy, that's for fucking sure. The Queen doesn’t bother me one bit. I don’t see that she’s any worse than any elected President we could have. I reckon William will be similar. Charles won’t be there for long if at all probably as for public school privilege…weirdly its become more common in recent years if I remember correctly… Thatcher/Kinnock/John Smith weren’t from that system we’re they? I don’t personally resent people paying for better healthcare or schooling but I would rather they weren’t the only ones who could get the top jobs. I think we’ve just had a blip… hopefully so As for if the people running the country are fit for purpose…who knows Trump seemed to do an ok job and everyone hated him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, Rayvin said: See, the way you're talking there makes it sound like you think I'm a child that doesn't understand what life is about. I am fully fucking aware what the deal with life is. The only possible meaning I have been able to discern for 'life' is that the journey/suffering is the entire point of it. I don't believe it's 'to love', I don't believe it's 'to be happy' - it's the fucking grind or it's nothing at all. I'm not looking for the government to take pity on me. I don't need it to. I'm trying to express my compassion and empathy for others, so that I can be part of a society that 'takes pity' on those who are struggling, which supports and helps them. I am trying to be part of a system that is less brutal and depressing than the one we live in. We don't need to make life worse than it already is by electing useless fucking governments that actively make things more difficult. I’m not intending to patronise you i just believe that most things ultimately are down to the individual to fix or not fix and giving people false hope is really dangerous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohhh_yeah 2765 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 7 minutes ago, Asprilla said: As for if the people running the country are fit for purpose…who knows Trump seemed to do an ok job and everyone hated him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 19 minutes ago, Renton said: Forget the shit metaphors (which I have never heard of btw), let's look at empirical evidence. Why are people from countries with advanced socialist societies happier than those from more capitalist societies you espouse? I don't expect you to answer btw, as you showed yesterday you are incapable of debate or backing up any of your viewpoints (look at the Labour front bench lol), but it remains a simple fact that capitalism makes more people miserable than Scandinavian style socialism. No I am happy to debate i don’t believe insulting each other is the way to enlightenment giving me a list of things to do isn’t going to happen Scandinavia does have some pretty high suicide rates although that could be from their 6 month nights Scandinavia has high tax capitalism I don’t agree with US healthcare and it’s one reason why I would be very wary of living there ive said before that I support the NHS and some basic welfare but just constantly turning the dial towards more socialism doesn’t automatically make things better for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Just now, ohhh_yeah said: Low energy prices no new wars defused threat of North Korea better employment among black people started to instigate prison reform Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 6 minutes ago, Asprilla said: I’m not intending to patronise you i just believe that most things ultimately are down to the individual to fix or not fix and giving people false hope is really dangerous I do in many ways agree. For instance, I have a friend of mine who, as a consequence of certain unfortunate circumstances in his life, is in need of therapy. He doesn't see it, or doesnt' want to get it, but it would help him enormously, I believe. I have suggested it, and he has refused. My role in that process ends there - I can't push him, I can't take him any further forward on dealing with his pain, he has to do that himself. He has an individual responsibility to take ownership for his situation and to start working through it (whether the solution is therapy or not). So yes, things are indeed ultimately down to the individual as far as their personal life circumstances go. However, that way of thinking can be extended too far. If an individual has no prospect or possibility of success, because no one is giving them a path to do so, then that person, whether they are individually driven to or not, cannot move forward. They are a prisoner of circumstance. Or maybe they've temporarily lost their way and are in freefall. They need a safety net to catch them and to compassionately support them in standing up again. Why would we not want those things. That's all, I believe, any of us are advocating for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohhh_yeah 2765 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Asprilla said: Low energy prices no new wars defused threat of North Korea better employment among black people started to instigate prison reform Just curious, in your opinion does Biden get credit with a top five achievements list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19806 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 14 minutes ago, Asprilla said: Trump seemed to do an ok job and everyone hated him. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Just now, Rayvin said: I do in many ways agree. For instance, I have a friend of mine who, as a consequence of certain unfortunate circumstances in his life, is in need of therapy. He doesn't see it, or doesnt' want to get it, but it would help him enormously, I believe. I have suggested it, and he has refused. My role in that process ends there - I can't push him, I can't take him any further forward on dealing with his pain, he has to do that himself. He has an individual responsibility to take ownership for his situation and to start working through it (whether the solution is therapy or not). So yes, things are indeed ultimately down to the individual as far as their personal life circumstances go. However, that way of thinking can be extended too far. If an individual has no prospect or possibility of success, because no one is giving them a path to do so, then that person, whether they are individually driven to or not, cannot move forward. They are a prisoner of circumstance. Or maybe they've temporarily lost their way and are in freefall. They need a safety net to catch them and to compassionately support them in standing up again. Why would we not want those things. That's all, I believe, any of us are advocating for. The fix if I was boss would be to get involved with property ownership i would allow tenants to have a stake in whatever the property value increased by while they were there. landlords could still benefit, just not by as much not being able to get a foothold is key to getting stuck in the poverty trap and conversely having something to lose helps people regulate their behaviour for the good 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 minute ago, ohhh_yeah said: Just curious, in your opinion does Biden get credit with a top five achievements list? I can’t think of anything right now He was one of the architects of the awful prison system that has been so disproportionately damaging to African Americans though He doesn’t appear to be in charge of very much these days. He really should be at home doing a big jigsaw IMO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohhh_yeah 2765 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Not even one? You are being several disingenuous! Your cohorts are challenged with a two piece puzzle with instructions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Just now, Asprilla said: The fix if I was boss would be to get involved with property ownership i would allow tenants to have a stake in whatever the property value increased by while they were there. landlords could still benefit, just not by as much not being able to get a foothold is key to getting stuck in the poverty trap and conversely having something to lose helps people regulate their behaviour for the good It's an interesting idea, and I can see some of the benefits. I don't have a better one in this particular area (rents and so on). You mentioned believing in the NHS also. I suspect in the US you'd be considered a socialist. I think we could probably agree that, where people have no options or choices for moving forward, they should be helped. The problem is understanding when that is true, and when people are just not taking the decisions needed to move forward as an individual. And I think again, most people here would agree that if someone is capable of moving forward on their own, it is actually better for them to do this than for society to try and enable them not doing so. So the issue in which we disagree I suppose is where the line is. And I don't pretend I know the answer to that tbh, but I do genuinely believe that austerity took us a long way in the opposite direction, and that people died as a consequence. I would rather err on the side of caution. That said, I don't want to enable people to 'fail' to live productive lives either. It's a difficult one to call, but surely we can do better than this. Giving people a sense of progress, a sense of their ability to move forward, is key. But social mobility is incredibly low at the moment, and I would very much like to see that change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30372 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 43 minutes ago, Renton said: Forget the shit metaphors (which I have never heard of btw), let's look at empirical evidence. Why are people from countries with advanced socialist societies happier than those from more capitalist societies you espouse? I don't expect you to answer btw, as you showed yesterday you are incapable of debate or backing up any of your viewpoints (look at the Labour front bench lol), but it remains a simple fact that capitalism makes more people miserable than Scandinavian style socialism. The metaphor relates to something Bill Shankly said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30372 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 He’s drawn you in anyway. Mission accomplished 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohhh_yeah 2765 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 11 minutes ago, Asprilla said: I can’t think of anything right now He was one of the architects of the awful prison system that has been so disproportionately damaging to African Americans though He doesn’t appear to be in charge of very much these days. He really should be at home doing a big jigsaw IMO "Back up your viewpoint!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17744 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 3 minutes ago, Alex said: He’s drawn you in anyway. Mission accomplished True. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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