Politics

[Renton 17649]

12 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

City of Chester. @The Fishterritory. I bet Dave's his wingman. 

 

Honestly, after the allegations on your own behaviour (taxigate), I don't know how you have the nerve. Ever considered a career in politics? 

[Gemmill 34201]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Honestly, after the allegations on your own behaviour (taxigate), I don't know how you have the nerve. Ever considered a career in politics? 

 

Making sure your wife's mortal friend gets safely into a taxi is NOT A CRIME, you rabid fannymuncher! 

[Rayvin 4949]

18 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Here's a few, done by his cabinet during his leadership.

Rwanda 
Levelling Up (was actually give money to Tory voting middle class areas)

"Global Britain" Very quietly joining Donald Trumps AUKUS. Deregulation of food standards, water quality standards etc.

The police, crime, sentencing and Courts Bill

The sewell report 

Covid response (not the scandal the actual response)

HS2 scaled down 

Healthand Care Bill 
The Nationality and Borders bill passed. (take away all legal routes and make it legal to treat asylum seekers differently based on how they entered, whether it was *cough* a legal route or not).

Building Safety bill amendment (you have to pay up to 15k towards removing unsafe building materials etc)

The Judicial Reivew and Courts Bill (restricts the public's ability to get courts to rule against government policies)

Things he wanted to do but didnt.

Attempts to bring in Voter ID (thankfully sacked first)
Leave the Geneva convention for refugees and the EUCHR


I always flinch a bit when people say he's done fuck all - because he's done so much all at once and none of it is good imo. It's been done by creating so much noise that you can ram loads of other stuff through with a majority while no ones looking.

Perhaps a point based immigration system - but I doubt the motives when we are guaranteeing India migrant work).

 

Right but as you say, done by his cabinet. One of whom - his second in command - is the present favourite after Johnson himself.

 

And while all of those things are 'bad' they're also very standard fare for the Tory party in terms of where it is. I still wouldn't put any of that on the same level as austerity.

 

I flinch when the notion that the other members of the Tory party not being as openly psychotic as Johnson means that they aren't as inwardly psychotic starts doing the rounds, and that's really what I'm speaking to here. The "sensible" Tories previously delivered us Brexit, austerity, and a health service that knew it was underprepared for a pandemic, reported as much, and which was ignored because preparing it properly would have gone against the austere grain. It's not Johnson's fault that the NHs was criminally underprepared for that pandemic (plenty is his fault in terms of handling it) - it's the fault of the "sensible" Tories. The death is on them just as much, if not perhaps more, than on Johnson.

 

Apparently what Johnson has managed to do here is make everyone think the normal Tories are somehow acceptable or decent people. They're not. They never have been. They are the enemy. Johnson is a fucking fool and a bigger threat to them than to us.

[Renton 17649]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Apparently what Johnson has managed to do here is make everyone think the normal Tories are somehow acceptable or decent people. They're not. They never have been. They are the enemy. Johnson is a fucking fool and a bigger threat to them than to us.

 

Complete strawman, nobody is saying "normal" tories are acceptable people. Even the most decent ones which were expelled, like Nicky Morgan, Anna Soubry, and Rory Stewart, I still viscerally think "cunt" when their names are mentioned. But that's not to recognise that Johnson is a bigger cunt, a bigger threat. It's like saying all Republicans in the US are as bad as Trump. Actually come to think of it, there is a case for that over there, but you know what I mean. Nobody has debased politics in this country like Johnson has, surely that is glaringly obvious? 

[Renton 17649]

I might add I am probably nearer someone like Stewart on the political spectrum than someone like Corbyn. And at least he advocates constitutional reform. 

[Rayvin 4949]

40 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

This is another version of "they're all the same". I disagree. Johnson systematically has attacked or currupted all our institions in government, including the system of democracy itself. I don't recall Cameron or May doing this, and I don't think Sunak would.

Anyway, one thing is for certain, I get no say in this. Best I just put my headphones on and listen to music rather than the utter bullshit on the radio. 

 

Sorry like, but did you have trust in politics post-Brexit? When May took a slim majority and turned it into hard Brexit to save her party from schism, were you sat there thinking to yourself "well I still trust this process".

 

Like fuck were you.

[Renton 17649]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Sorry like, but did you have trust in politics post-Brexit? When May took a slim majority and turned it into hard Brexit to save her party from schism, were you sat there thinking to yourself "well I still trust this process".

 

Like fuck were you.

 

I've never had complete trust in the political process in this country, which is an archaic joke based on unwritten rules in the main. But it's degraded more in the past decade, especially post-Brexit, than ever before. Culminating in an absolute shit show in Johnson as PM. For me, there is a clear qualitative difference in what Johnson and Cummings did compared with his predecessors. Even before he was PM, he was the main reason for the Leave vote. 

[Rayvin 4949]

14 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Complete strawman, nobody is saying "normal" tories are acceptable people. Even the most decent ones which were expelled, like Nicky Morgan, Anna Soubry, and Rory Stewart, I still viscerally think "cunt" when their names are mentioned. But that's not to recognise that Johnson is a bigger cunt, a bigger threat. It's like saying all Republicans in the US are as bad as Trump. Actually come to think of it, there is a case for that over there, but you know what I mean. Nobody has debased politics in this country like Johnson has, surely that is glaringly obvious? 

 

The strawmanning is relentless on here so I wouldn't start that one.

 

Johnson isn't our Trump, Brexit is. Johnson is the closest individual to that title, but the real chaos at the heart of everything in this country is Brexit. And frankly, it's an even worse version of Trump because it can't be voted out of office. We are stuck with it. And for the last fucking time, which particular side of the Tory party delivered Brexit to us? Which group of competent leaders cast the country down this path? Who let Johnson get his foot in the door in the first place because saving the party was more important to them than protecting the country? Why in fuck would you want those people back. Johnson at least doesn't seem to give a flying fuck about the Tory Party, in fact you could almost believe he's on a mission to destroy it.

 

The threat is the Tory Party. The immediate threat is letting them austerity us through 2 years of a cost of living crisis. The damage and death could be untold - but because they look presentable in suits and say things in a vaguely professional way, people will nod along like the pack of sheep they are, and choke it down. This country is not educated enough to handle that and deal with it appropriately - we have too many people who think they've got the first fucking clue about how any of this works because they spent 10 mins googling it, too many people who wing their views based on how they feel in a given moment.

 

Johnson has the advantage of repelling almost everyone whether they consider him at an intellectual level or, shudder as I say it, a gut feel level.

 

But look, going round the houses now - we just have different views about the potential damage caused by either side. You're worried about democracy and institutions - I'm not, they're fucked already. I'm worried about people's lives.

[Rayvin 4949]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I've never had complete trust in the political process in this country, which is an archaic joke based on unwritten rules in the main. But it's degraded more in the past decade, especially post-Brexit, than ever before. Culminating in an absolute shit show in Johnson as PM. For me, there is a clear qualitative difference in what Johnson and Cummings did compared with his predecessors. Even before he was PM, he was the main reason for the Leave vote. 

 

And on a different day of the week you'd say Corbyn was. But the real truth of it, is that the main reason for the leave vote was David fucking Cameron and 8 years of austerity.

[Renton 17649]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

And on a different day of the week you'd say Corbyn was. But the real truth of it, is that the main reason for the leave vote was David fucking Cameron and 8 years of austerity.

 

The all had their role, and anyone of them could have changed the outcome. But only one of them benefitted from it. 

[Rayvin 4949]

Just now, Renton said:

 

The all had their role, and anyone of them could have changed the outcome. But only one of them benefitted from it. 

 

And only one of them had the ability to prevent the entire fiasco.

[Monkeys Fist 38615]

3 hours ago, Gemmill said:

 

 

Anyway the big news is Chisti is throwing his weight behind Sunak. 

 

 

“ Big” and “weight” aren’t terms you’d normally associate with these manlets 

[Renton 17649]

16 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

But look, going round the houses now - we just have different views about the potential damage caused by either side. You're worried about democracy and institutions - I'm not, they're fucked already. I'm worried about people's lives.

 

I'm worried about people's lives too, including people I know and dare I say it people on here. But these things aren't mutually exclusive. If we don't have strong institutions and democracy, peoples' leves can't be improved. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Renton

[Rayvin 4949]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

I'm worried about people's lives too, including people I know and dare I say it people on here. But these things aren't mutually exclusive. If we don't have strong institutions and emocracy, peoples' leves can't be improved. 

 

We don't get those things back until the Tories are gone though, that's the thing. We cannot take 2+5 years of the Tories, the country wouldn't survive it in any sense. If Brexit was the result of austerity last time - which I fully believe it was - then I dread to think that another 7 years of Tory austerity off the back of Brexit would lead us to. We could be a fucking police state by the end of that because to make that fly they'd have to double down all the more on immigrants and the vulnerable.

 

I get your point that they're going to lose no matter what, and on that basis I also can see why you prefer Sunak since he will do less damage in the process of getting to the GE. But I am just not as sure as you are that they don't bounce back and find something they can weaponise against Labour in the way they just always do. I have no trust in where we are as a country for that not to happen.

[Monkeys Fist 38615]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

emocracy

 

( sorry for the pendantry). 

[Craig 6295]

It's looking likely that the 3 (if they get 3) will be Sunak, Johnson & Mordaunt.

 

Perversely, I think Sunak's best chance to become PM were if he were to go up against Johnson. If it's Sunak v Mordaunt I would expect most, if not all, of Johnson's supporters to get behind Mordaunt. It'll be anyone except Sunak if Johnson isn't the opportunity. 

 

I think it's also very telling that no-one, Wallace and Hunt aside, has counted themselves in or out of the race. I wouldn't be suprised if a Sunak/Mordaunt joint ticket IS being arranged.

 

[Rayvin 4949]

I thought of a better way of reconciling this anyway, at least I think.

 

I will concede that if I knew that the Tories were beaten either way, I would prefer Sunak. Are you happy to agree that if the choice was 2 years of Boris or the Tories win the next election, you'd take Boris? Because I think if we get that far it's just down to our assessment of risk - and really that's a subjective and fairly personal thing.

[Rayvin 4949]

2 minutes ago, Craig said:

I think it's also very telling that no-one, Wallace and Hunt aside, has counted themselves in or out of the race. I wouldn't be suprised if a Sunak/Mordaunt joint ticket IS being arranged.

 

Possibly true but would it be enough to sway the membership?

[scoobos 297]

17 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

“ Big” and “weight” aren’t terms you’d normally associate with these manlets 

 

I'll say it right here and right now - there's no fucking way the Conservative party are going to vote in a "Darkie" as PM. No fucking way.

[Renton 17649]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

I thought of a better way of reconciling this anyway, at least I think.

 

I will concede that if I knew that the Tories were beaten either way, I would prefer Sunak. Are you happy to agree that if the choice was 2 years of Boris or the Tories win the next election, you'd take Boris? Because I think if we get that far it's just down to our assessment of risk - and really that's a subjective and fairly personal thing.

 

Yes, I'd go along with that. Two years of Johnson is preferable to seven years of Sunak. I honestly believe though the tories have almost no chance of returning a majority after a GE now. And their best chance, although remote, would be under Johnson in any case, because he'll stop at nothing to ensure it, including committing British troups to Ukraine if he thought it would help (as an example). 

[Renton 17649]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Possibly true but would it be enough to sway the membership?

 

I don't think so. Those senile cunts will go with Johnson if he's on the ticket. 

[Dr Gloom 19751]

16 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I thought of a better way of reconciling this anyway, at least I think.

 

I will concede that if I knew that the Tories were beaten either way, I would prefer Sunak. Are you happy to agree that if the choice was 2 years of Boris or the Tories win the next election, you'd take Boris? Because I think if we get that far it's just down to our assessment of risk - and really that's a subjective and fairly personal thing.

 

mate, they're toast. their time would probably be up anyway as 12-14 years is enough for most voters just to want a change of direction as it is. that's before we consider how their image has been tarnished by johnson breaking the law, repeatedly lying and truss's incompetence with the economy. 

 

the cost of living crisis is going to start biting this winter, inflation is soaring, we are probably already in a recession and voters are terrified about their mortgages and pensions. the next tory pm is going to own all of this - whoever it is. the game is up for these shysters

Edited October 21, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[Gemmill 34201]

 

 

Come on man. 

 

 

[Gemmill 34201]

 

 

Christopher Hope is a fucking bellend. Everything he writes is in service to Boris Johnson. 

 

He needs to come back. He nerds to apologise to his MPs, his party and the country. And then he needs to whip his MPs to end the Privileges Committee inquiry and chuck out any that refuse. 

 

You fucking what mate?! 

[Rayvin 4949]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

mate, they're toast. their time would probably be up anywayas  12-14 years is enough for most voters just to want a change of direction as it is. that's before we consider how their image has been tarnished by johnson breaking the law, repeatedly lying and truss's incompetence with the economy. 

 

the cost of living crisis is going to start biting this winter, inflation is soaring, we are probably already in a recession and voters are terrified about their mortgages and pensions. the next tory pm is going to own all of this - whoever it is. the game is up for these shysters

 

I was talking to my Mum yesterday - soft Labour voter, definitely the kind of person that 'the right' Tory leader could win over. She was talking about how Starmer has no conviction, she doesn't think he stands for anything, and then goes on about how Ben Wallace should take over for the Tories and how good he'd be. - the only reason it seems she'd vote Labour at the moment is that the Tories are terrible. But that's the danger - they're two parties in one at the moment and each side has been able to point to the other for blame in order to keep people onside with them, right throughout the Brexit fiasco. My worry is the slate gets wiped clean for whoever comes in and then Starmer is suddenly under a spotlight again in terms of being boring etc.

 

He wasn't surging against the Tories until Boris started flatlining, Labour did nothing to make that shift happen other than staying the course and letting the Tories implode. If there's no more implosion, does that strategy still work?