Jump to content

Recommended Posts

The only way this gets better is if he announces they're reversing their decision to stand down in Tory seats. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In normal times the 500k disabled people who have successfully taken the government to court over losing benefits would’ve got more of a mention too

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

if only labour could point to recent evidence of improved spending and service under a labour government 

 

Labour should wipe the floor on this issue. And be upfront. The tories promises on immigration will wreck the NHS even more.

 

Patel and Javid, 2 second generation immigrants, are rank hypocrites too. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

But Labour aren’t a remain party.

 

Yeah I keep seeing that statement doing the rounds and I find it mystifying. Labour will give us a second vote, which will very probably result in Remain. If it doesn't, I'm not sure any of us have any leg to stand on. Even I accept it at that point, but the second vote, IMO, is basically Remain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Corbyn now saying no indeyref2 in the first two years. Genuinely seems like Labour weren't prepared for this issue. Annoying and unprofessional.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that seems fair enough. In the first year of a Labour government we'd have the re-negotiation with the EU and then a second referendum. To go from that and jump straight into a Scottish referendum doesn't seem reasonable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ewerk said:

I think that seems fair enough. In the first year of a Labour government we'd have the re-negotiation with the EU and then a second referendum. To go from that and jump straight into a Scottish referendum doesn't seem reasonable.

 

I agree, but yesterday he was saying it wouldn't be in the next 5 years, making this a 24 hour u-turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sturgeon can say she'll demand it in return for cooperation in the event of a hung parliament but what’s she going to do? Go into coalition with Tories? As Begbie would say get tae fuckin’ fuck 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Owen Jones proving that he reads my posts on here:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/14/lib-dems-labour-brexit-jo-swinson-remain-vote-boris-johnson

 

The Lib Dems will protest that this is terribly unfair. Are they not a national party with the right to stand wherever they choose? Yes, this is how politics works. But the problem is this: the party has made stopping Brexit its defining cause, while simultaneously portraying it as a crusade that transcends party politics. The Lib Dems know that throwing resources at seats they cannot win and peeling away significant numbers of Labour voters will allow the Tories to win. They know that demonising Labour as a “Brexit party” – when a Labour-led government implementing its policy of a second referendum is the only plausible route to stop Brexit – divides remainers to the benefit of the Tory Brexiteers. They know that focusing their vitriol on Corbyn strengthens the position of Johnson.

But ultimately they are not, by definition, an anti-Brexit party; the remain cause is secondary to increasing the number of Lib Dem seats in parliament. If your main aim in politics is to advance the partisan interests of the Lib Dems and repeat their performance in government, then this makes sense. If your only cause is stopping Brexit, however, it does not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I agree, but yesterday he was saying it wouldn't be in the next 5 years, making this a 24 hour u-turn.

To be fair he said "early years" - he seemed to want to take scotland along with the union rather than jettison them - I think that's a fair position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, ewerk said:

I think that seems fair enough. In the first year of a Labour government we'd have the re-negotiation with the EU and then a second referendum. To go from that and jump straight into a Scottish referendum doesn't seem reasonable.

Definitely fair because without a Brexit there is no case for Indyref2

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it makes it much harder but I'm not sure if the Scots will forget how they've been treated by the British government over the last few years. They'd always gotten on so well before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Well it makes it much harder but I'm not sure if the Scots will forget how they've been treated by the British government over the last few years. They'd always gotten on so well before.

 

Assuming we get out of this, if I was Scottish, I would want a cast iron legal guarantee from the British government that if there is every any manner of attempt to leave the EU in future, it automatically triggers an independence referendum - I would want this at the very least.

 

Frankly, it would probably be better to just get out once and for all just to be free of the Tories.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yeah I keep seeing that statement doing the rounds and I find it mystifying. Labour will give us a second vote, which will very probably result in Remain. If it doesn't, I'm not sure any of us have any leg to stand on. Even I accept it at that point, but the second vote, IMO, is basically Remain.

 

The fact that you keep seeing it is Labour's fundamental failure on Brexit though. Most people don't pay enough attention to politics for a nuanced message to cut through. And quite frankly Labour's position is as much confused as it is nuanced given they can't even commit to whether they would campaign for or against this deal they say they would negotiate. I mean you must have watched Labour MPs get asked this question and they refuse to answer it. You or I understand why they're refusing but most people aren't prepared to entertain the mental gymnastics that explain their reticence. They just think "this cunt doesn't know what they want on the biggest issue facing the country. I'm not voting for them."

 

That is a fucking shambolic position to try to take to an electorate that already has a problem with the leader of the party. The fact is, perception is reality, and if you don't SAY you're a Remain party, then you're not a Remain party.

 

How an organisation that operates in the world of politics where perception is ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING hasn't grasped this is beyond me. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly the more you think about it, the more mental it is. Every voter in this country has a position on Leave or Remain and yet they watch Labour MPs get asked "Leave or Remain?" and the answer is "Errrrrr...". 

 

Fuck off man. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what do you think they should do, fight over votes with the Lib Dems? It's a strategically worthless position. I'm sorry but it just is. There is nothing to be gained from taking the same position as the LDs, all it will do it reinforce this idea that Labour has indeed abandoned Leavers. And since they haven't actually done this, I don't know why they would want to.

 

Moreover, by remaining neutral in any eventual referendum, they are allowing the possibility for the country to move past viciously hating each other.

 

Look, perception may be everything but you're assuming a great deal about how people outside of our specific echo chamber are perceiving this. The proof will be in the pudding I expect, but Labour are the ones who have to retain these working class leave constituencies, not the Lib Dems.

Edited by Rayvin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


Recent tweets

Toontastic Facebook

Donate to Toontastic

Keeping the lights on since... well ages ago
TT-Staff


×