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3 minutes ago, wykikitoon said:

She's just been up here selling buns for Crimbo Jumper day too :lol: 

Call her back, buy one then just crush it in front of her , whilst silently mouthing obscenities. :lol:
 

 

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Looking forward from here the only way Johnson can deliver on his promise of a swift trade deal is to go for a close relationship with the EU. The alternative is no deal and I don’t think even he will deliver that.

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43 minutes ago, ewerk said:

What a catastrophic fuck up by the non-Tory parties. A few months ago they had the Tories right where they wanted them. Utterly paralysed and losing vote after vote in the House.

History will show that was their time to get their shit together and get a second referendum.

Instead they retreated back into their own camps and let their own (largely misplaced) self confidence get the best of them.

Johnson was desperate to go to the electorate. The SNP began backing him because the chaos suited them in Scotland. The Lib Dems then believed their own hype and thought they could capitalise on their anti-Brexit stance. This was followed by Labour completely ignoring the polls and the fact that Corbyn had the worst favourability ratings SINCE RECORDS BEGAN and believing the messiah would provide a miracle.

So once all that happened it was inevitable that the anti-Tory parties would refuse to work together. They were all too good for that.

I’d be interested to see how much effect an electoral pact would have had on keeping Johnson out but the main problem was giving him the election in the first place.

You’ve pretty much nailed it. The only thing I would say is the numbers were never quite there for a second referendum 

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My workplace can be utterly shit at times but at least I have the consolation of not having any of that Christmas jumpers/secret santa/fat Sharon-Wyki-love triangle/Christmas cards shit going on. Fuck that. :lol:

 

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From the guardian's Gary Younge. I know this isnt what people want to hear about centrism but as ewerk said, and as I've tried to say in my tired incoherence (I can't sleep still, given up), this wasn't a ringing endorsement for the centre:

 

They [centrists] will have to face the fact that the electorate did not abandon Labour for the centre. They went either to the far right in England and Wales or to the social democratic nationalist alternative in Scotland. They did not go to the Liberal Democrats or back Change. Chuka Umunna, Dominic Grieve, David Gauke, Anna Soubry, Jo Swinson and Luciana Berger all lost.

I did not hear a single voter ask about Owen Smith or pine for Yvette Cooper. Whatever comes next it won’t be a return to abstaining on the welfare bill or backing the hostile environment policy. They will want Labour to be more effective in opposition, but they will want it to mount an opposition.

The centrists will have to face the fact that the thousands of people who travelled the country during these past few weeks to canvass in the cold and rain are not about to abandon their ideals or the party. And those who invested so heavily in this particular iteration of Labour will have to face the fact that their conviction alone was not enough to convince others of their ideals.

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11 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Don't worry, everyone. Jeremy has been "proved right"

 

UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE

You have to laugh really 

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A lot of this left/right/centre thinking would be shaken up if we had proper electoral reform anyway. But no chance of that for a generation now, I guess.

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6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

From the guardian's Gary Younge. I know this isnt what people want to hear about centrism but as ewerk said, and as I've tried to say in my tired incoherence (I can't sleep still, given up), this wasn't a ringing endorsement for the centre:

 

They [centrists] will have to face the fact that the electorate did not abandon Labour for the centre. They went either to the far right in England and Wales or to the social democratic nationalist alternative in Scotland. They did not go to the Liberal Democrats or back Change. Chuka Umunna, Dominic Grieve, David Gauke, Anna Soubry, Jo Swinson and Luciana Berger all lost.

I did not hear a single voter ask about Owen Smith or pine for Yvette Cooper. Whatever comes next it won’t be a return to abstaining on the welfare bill or backing the hostile environment policy. They will want Labour to be more effective in opposition, but they will want it to mount an opposition.

The centrists will have to face the fact that the thousands of people who travelled the country during these past few weeks to canvass in the cold and rain are not about to abandon their ideals or the party. And those who invested so heavily in this particular iteration of Labour will have to face the fact that their conviction alone was not enough to convince others of their ideals.

 

Be honest though  Rayvin at least. There was no credible centre left party for 90% of people to vote for. And we will never know the outcome if there had been. What we do know is that the three biggest turn offs for voters to Labour were Corbyn himself, Labour's policies (seen as too extreme) and then Brexit, in that order. 

 

I maintain a centrally positioned labour party with a charismatic leader would have beaten Johnson hands down. But I can't prove it and we'll never know, so perhaps we should both five it a rest.

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3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Be honest though  Rayvin at least. There was no credible centre left party for 90% of people to vote for. And we will never know the outcome if there had been. What we do know is that the three biggest turn offs for voters to Labour were Corbyn himself, Labour's policies (seen as too extreme) and then Brexit, in that order. 

 

I maintain a centrally positioned labour party with a charismatic leader would have beaten Johnson hands down. But I can't prove it and we'll never know, so perhaps we should both five it a rest.

 

I think a centrist, media friendly pro Remain leader would have done far better, but probably still lost a decent number of the hard-core leave seats. Maybe they would have picked up enough Tory ones to counter that, idk.

 

I'm talking now about the future of the party though. Whether you think Younge or any of the Corbyn faithful are right or not, it is clear that they do not see this as a defeat for left wing policy. And their policy research will support that, since they received broadly favourable results.

 

The consequence of that view, is that Labour is doomed. If it goes centrist, the left will schism out (And they are not so small in number that Labour don't need them). If it goes left, the centre leave and have to vaguely try to establish an electoral force in the same place as the Lib Dems who have proven once again that they're on a hiding to nothing but can at least win a reasonable number of centrist votes - or to join with them and further alienate the soft left.

 

The only chance for Labour is the broad church, and it isn't happening.

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4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think a centrist, media friendly pro Remain leader would have done far better, but probably still lost a decent number of the hard-core leave seats. Maybe they would have picked up enough Tory ones to counter that, idk.

 

I'm talking now about the future of the party though. Whether you think Younge or any of the Corbyn faithful are right or not, it is clear that they do not see this as a defeat for left wing policy. And their policy research will support that, since they received broadly favourable results.

 

The consequence of that view, is that Labour is doomed. If it goes centrist, the left will schism out (And they are not so small in number that Labour don't need them). If it goes left, the centre leave and have to vaguely try to establish an electoral force in the same place as the Lib Dems who have proven once again that they're on a hiding to nothing but can at least win a reasonable number of centrist votes - or to join with them and further alienate the soft left.

 

The only chance for Labour is the broad church, and it isn't happening.

 

Yeah, fair enough, can't disagree with that. It's a right mess. 

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It's a right mess unless we literally have the second coming of Blair around the corner, with enough despair on the left to wave it through. Who knows I guess but i don't think it looks good.

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Just now, Rayvin said:

It's a right mess unless we literally have the second coming of Blair around the corner, with enough despair on the left to wave it through. Who knows I guess but i don't think it looks good.

governing is good. you can change people's lives for the better, blair did that, but you have to win power first.  

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Just now, Dr Gloom said:

governing is good. you can change people's lives for the better, blair did that, but you have to win power first.  

 

So how are you proposing we get the left on board with austerity lite? Maybe we leave that particular policy on the bonfire. I wonder if all of this could have been avoided if Labour just opposed austerity properly... maybe Corbyn would never have been elected. As I've said before, I was going Cooper up until I read his manifesto and the party broadly voted to punish poor people in some timely vote on austerity around the same time.

 

But anyway, if the centrists want to take the party back, it's gonna have to be seriously convincing stuff. Winning elections should be front and centre but it can't be everything.

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you can reclaim the centre ground without supporting austerity again. you're right, you need a broad church, you need to keep the radical left with you, you also need to win soft c conservatives over if you want to govern again. 

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