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2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

But we did that with Blair and for all the progress made under new Labour, things are now worse than I've ever seen them.

 

We are. But that is not Blair's fault. For me, and I appreciate this is where I fundamentally disagree with NJS and probably SpongeBob, the UK under Blair was a pretty fucking good place, so he actually proved what can be done. I am aware there may be an element of rose tinted glasses about this and bias as I was in my late 20s and early 30s at the time. But my perception was we were one of the best countries in the World to live in at the time, and society was quite cohesive. Don't forget who destroyed this. 

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14 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

"Oh, Nandy
Well, you came
And you gave without taking
But I sent you away
Oh, Nandy
Well, you kissed me
And stopped me from shaking
But I need Streeting today
Oh, Nandy" 

 

barry manilow february GIF

 

I'd take a cheeky Nandy too. She's not put a foot wrong since I tipped her for the top spot. 

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Meanwhile, right wilst @Rayvin is prevaricating over whther Labour suit his ideals enough, Raab is giving a speech where he is de facto ditching the ECHR. THIS is what needs to be stopped. 

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Just now, Renton said:

Meanwhile, right wilst @Rayvin is prevaricating over whther Labour suit his ideals enough, Raab is giving a speech where he is de facto ditching the ECHR. THIS is what needs to be stopped. 

 

Same question as for Tom - if he does it, will Labour bring it back?

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7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Same question as for Tom - if he does it, will Labour bring it back?

 

I am fairly certain yes. But as a minimum, I believe Starmer would stop our further descent into a facist state. You either don't believe this, or don't care much anyway. 

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12 hours ago, Rayvin said:

What infighting? They look fairly solid on that front at the moment.

Erm ... some people going to the picket lines and Starmer not.. Hardly a united front is it, and exactly what BJ wants.

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Just now, Renton said:

 

I am fairly certain yes. But as a minimum, I believe Starmer would stop our further descent into a facist state. You either don't believe this, or don't care much anyway. 

 

I think the bar we have to stoop under keeps getting lower and lower.

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Just now, Rayvin said:

 

I think the bar we have to stoop under keeps getting lower and lower.

 

It does every second this rank government are in charge, yes. 

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3 hours ago, Gemmill said:

 

 

 

The left demands perfect, the right will take literally anything that isn't the left. 

I'll go clean my boxing glove typewriter hands after this , but fuck me if this isn't the most astute thing I've read in months .. That's it isnt it! But the Conservatives seem able to define and move what "left" means at will.

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We won't get the ECHR back, Labour won't push for it for the same reasons they won't push for Brexit. If the Tories bin it here, it's gone.

 

Nothing you can do about it, no point saying anything now that in a few days time, once it goes through, you'll have to shut up about or risk offending the voters Labour needs to win.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

We won't get the ECHR back, Labour won't push for it for the same reasons they won't push for Brexit. If the Tories bin it here, it's gone.

 

Nothing you can do about it, no point saying anything now that in a few days time, once it goes through, you'll have to shut up about or risk offending the voters Labour needs to win.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

I think you are completely wrong imo. 

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2 hours ago, Tom said:


Yep, sadly I've been saying this to people for a very long time but their privilege comes out and they can only think of themselves. 
 

Its fucking idiot and that's how we've ended up with the current kleptocratic morons. 

I think to be fair, its not peoples fault, its the power of marketing and propaganda that makes out that to think of others before yourself is in some way idiotic or wrong . That we should have everything we want now, as we "deserve it".

Thats what 12 years of Conservatives and neoliberalism, during the technical revolution will do. Ipads, facebook, social media etc - they've all pushed this kind of "self" is the most important thing - show off what you have, feel sad if people look to be living more comfortably than you.

They've almost won, havent they? That's where my depression kicks in, the power of the influence away from charity, co-operation and compassion. I think this is why I get so upset about us helping Ukraine but turning a blind eye to Syria , Sudan, Mali, Yemen etc etc etc. 
Things have got so bad with Externalities that we forcefully seem to compartmentalise the true cost . Pair of Jeans for less than a tenner == definate ecological and human abuse - so we "dont think about it". 

Arguably that can be led to modern uk politics , cant it? The people who are not voting (who in my mind are as bad as those who are voting Tory) , are turning a blind eye to the fact that they can have a high standard of living at the expense of the "underclasses" , the disabled, human beings overseas being bombed and killed with our weaponry , people who have to live at home till 23, zero hour contracts, exploiting Eastern european workers etc. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

We won't get the ECHR back, Labour won't push for it for the same reasons they won't push for Brexit. If the Tories bin it here, it's gone.

 

Nothing you can do about it, no point saying anything now that in a few days time, once it goes through, you'll have to shut up about or risk offending the voters Labour needs to win.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

Isn't the point though that Labour wouldn't get rid of it in the first place? Which is why we're all saying that the absolute imperative is to remove the current lot at all costs. 

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2 hours ago, Gemmill said:

 

My lass is quitting later this year after 23 years as a teacher. 

And good on her, it took me YEARS to convince my wife to do this. Its the most abused position I've seen.

I was on the largest salary I've ever had at one point - and she was working at least 15 hours a week more than me, every Saturday for 4 hours, every sunday nearly all day - all for fuckin league tables etc - and they get paid fuck all really. The "6 week" holiday thing is bollocks too, because its marking, lesson plans and also the fact that you cannot choose your time off , you have to go on holiday to "get away from work" at a higher cost, because kids are off school - so you don't get away from them at all!

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4 minutes ago, scoobos said:

I think to be fair, its not peoples fault, its the power of marketing and propaganda that makes out that to think of others before yourself is in some way idiotic or wrong . That we should have everything we want now, as we "deserve it".

Thats what 12 years of Conservatives and neoliberalism, during the technical revolution will do. Ipads, facebook, social media etc - they've all pushed this kind of "self" is the most important thing - show off what you have, feel sad if people look to be living more comfortably than you.

They've almost won, havent they? That's where my depression kicks in, the power of the influence away from charity, co-operation and compassion. I think this is why I get so upset about us helping Ukraine but turning a blind eye to Syria , Sudan, Mali, Yemen etc etc etc. 
Things have got so bad with Externalities that we forcefully seem to compartmentalise the true cost . Pair of Jeans for less than a tenner == definate ecological and human abuse - so we "dont think about it". 

Arguably that can be led to modern uk politics , cant it? The people who are not voting (who in my mind are as bad as those who are voting Tory) , are turning a blind eye to the fact that they can have a high standard of living at the expense of the "underclasses" , the disabled, human beings overseas being bombed and killed with our weaponry , people who have to live at home till 23, zero hour contracts, exploiting Eastern european workers etc. 

 

 

Think you're broadly right. But what happens when that model is broken? I.e. now? We're finding out but for us, it's not going to be good. 

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These last few pages man :lol:

 

 

 

You can have one of two sandwiches*

A nice chicken/falafel salad with a dressing of your choice, pick your bread, all made to order… but, the person who makes it probably had a shit this morning before coming to work. 
 

Or

 

Put your hands out, we’ll get the fat tramp from the alley behind the shop to come in and  drop a fresh steamer in them, no dressing, no bread, eat it all up like a good boy. 
 

 

 

*other “sandwiches” are available, but will only have one single filling, on sliced white, and it’ll be ready for you in a year or three. 
 

 

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Just now, scoobos said:

And good on her, it took me YEARS to convince my wife to do this. Its the most abused position I've seen.

I was on the largest salary I've ever had at one point - and she was working at least 15 hours a week more than me, every Saturday for 4 hours, every sunday nearly all day - all for fuckin league tables etc - and they get paid fuck all really. The "6 week" holiday thing is bollocks too, because its marking, lesson plans and also the fact that you cannot choose your time off , you have to go on holiday to "get away from work" at a higher cost, because kids are off school - so you don't get away from them at all!

 

Aye totally agree. All of the above applies here too. 

 

The thing that finally got her over the line was watching a video by these gobby manc ex teachers and their whole spiel was stop thinking you need to replace this single source of income (teaching) with another single source of income. Because that's what traps nearly all teachers cos they don't see what they can move into that will pay the same and they all have it in their head that it has to be a single job. 

 

It's all about multiple education based income streams - private tuition being the most obvious of them all. 

 

The title of the video is actually the Pit Pony cos they were applying to teachers the analogy of the pit ponies that continued walking in circles even after they'd been "retired" cos it was all they knew to do. 

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1 hour ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I disagree with this. At some point you have to win the argument or everything will just keep getting worse

Wow its took some catching up today on this, Im supposed to be working man!

As I've said before (but maybe not to you) I am not a voter of any particular party. I usually vote Lib Dem, Green or Labour - I vote (perhaps stupidly) on manifestos. 

Ok. to my point :D

I've never seen Starmer "Lose" an argument in PMQ's he absolutely rinses Boris every time - but you don't see it in the papers , only occasionally on BBC and often on C4.  thats because they have control of the media and are oppressing those that dont.

If Starmer was going to win this battle by winning arguments he'd have done so by now - but unfortunately , the power that the lobbyists, business leaders and Conservatives have now is very challenging to beat. I don't actually know how you can. Boris Johnsons government should have been dead and buried once Starmer brought up the contract tracing app , lack of PPE due to preferential contracts and ignoring companies without links to the Tories - and especially the lockdown breaches by Number 10.  Winning arguments and reason dont seem to work when the media is 70% on the enemies side and much much more effective than it was 10 years ago.

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9 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Isn't the point though that Labour wouldn't get rid of it in the first place? Which is why we're all saying that the absolute imperative is to remove the current lot at all costs. 

 

That might be your point. I'd rather we were shouting loudly about our principles and seeking to reclaim lost ground, not accepting an ever lower drop through the floor. Your position permits for Labour to come in periodically and stop the rot for a few years while being terrified of reversing anything that might lose them votes, and then for the Tories to get back in and destroy even more. That is staggered decline. We need to win and build, and to do that we need to actually stand up for what we believe in, at some fucking point.

 

I'm really kind of amazed at how cowed we've become.

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1 hour ago, Ayatollah Hermione said:


Jesus Christ. How in the fucking hell have we ended up here?

The covid pandemic, it happened to thousands of disabled people , and some of them not so disabled. I'll find a link later if you're interested. 

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1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

That might be your point. I'd rather we were shouting loudly about our principles and seeking to reclaim lost ground, not accepting an ever lower drop through the floor. Your position permits for Labour to come in periodically and stop the rot for a few years while being terrified of reversing anything that might lose them votes, and then for the Tories to get back in and destroy even more. That is staggered decline. We need to win and build, and to do that we need to actually stand up for what we believe in, at some fucking point.

 

I'm really kind of amazed at how cowed we've become.

 

Well better than your position which permits for the Tories to stay in power, unchallenged.

 

Either Labour says things that will make you happier but will guarantee they lose the next election, or you'll withhold your vote. You've set them up with a lose-lose proposition. 

 

If denouncing Brexit gains your vote and loses them three others, then they can't do that. There's no use being principled and on the opposition benches. 

 

The Tories are tearing up the ECHR and your response to this is "well Labour aren't much better cos they won't bring it back". Eh?! 

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1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

 

Well better than your position which permits for the Tories to stay in power, unchallenged.

 

Either Labour says things that will make you happier but will guarantee they lose the next election, or you'll withhold your vote. You've set them up with a lose-lose proposition. 

 

If denouncing Brexit gains your vote and loses them three others, then they can't do that. There's no use being principled and on the opposition benches. 

 

The Tories are tearing up the ECHR and your response to this is "well Labour aren't much better cos they won't bring it back". Eh?! 

 

I disagree with the premise that Labour can't win using truth. They're running scared, but they don't have to be.

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