Renton 17746 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 40 minutes ago, Alex said: Every same person knows what it is but, as we’ve been through, you can’t allow the GE campaign to be about Brexit again if you’re Labour. As for another term of the Tories being a favourable option, that’s effectively another 7 years of the stripping away of rights etc. Fuck that fucking shit. Things can get a lot worse than this. Yeah, on balance this, although I sympathise with Songebob and Rayvin's view. Check out the link I made just above, then tell me what will we have left after 7 years? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30383 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 I totally get where both Rayvin and SpongeBob are coming from. But all I can envisage is a further shift towards fascism and all pervasive culture of lies with another term of the Conservatives in power. I don’t see how we get back from that. I mean we can but you’re talking about writing off a generation at that stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6302 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 26 minutes ago, Alex said: I totally get where both Rayvin and SpongeBob are coming from. But all I can envisage is a further shift towards fascism and all pervasive culture of lies with another term of the Conservatives in power. I don’t see how we get back from that. I mean we can but you’re talking about writing off a generation at that stage. We’re not far off that now tbh. No way we can allow those fuckwits another term in power. It can get a lot worse than it currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 I don't disagree about a lost generation and the importance of getting the Tories out of power. I just cannot make myself believe that the only way Labour can proceed here is to become complicit in Brexit, which is exactly what they will become, and actively trying to enable the most dangerous and damaging political outcome in living memory. A Labour Brexit doesn't get better, it just gets worse slower. So either way, we're saying that whether it's the Tories or Labour, we're heading into a worse position. That we all have to accept this. To me, that is utterly crackers. The issue isn't even Brexit, it's that we have reached a stage as a society where it is impossible to have an honest conversation about the actual factors that determine how our country runs and what it is impacted by. If it isn't possible for us to do that, what is the fucking point in any of this? We're saying there are huge policy areas which cannot be talked about and just have to be accepted while we move deckchairs around elsewhere hoping for the best. You're talking about this lost generation as if it hasn't already happened. It has. Nothing Labour is going to do will change that. We will be unfucking this for the rest of our lives, and at some stage, there is going to have to be that honest conversation otherwise nothing ever gets learned. The truth is the only thing that can lead to the changes we need to prevent this shit happening again - we need media standards on misinformation. Standards of behaviour for politicians. Constitutional protections for institutions. Voting reform. Investment in civic education. Long term planning baked into political mindsets. Until we get these things, this fucking charade from the Tories and Labour's decision to play along with it is fundamentally damaging this country for the long term. We talk here as if it is simply an unavoidable fact that Brexit cannot be discussed in terms of its realities because of the political climate, but I put to you instead that the truth is more that Labour simply doesn't have the creativity, vision or balls to win while taking it head on. That's what I find so objectionable. This is not a strong Labour party, it's a weak one that we're trying to big up out of desperation. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3599 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 If Labour can't win the argument that these border delays are caused by brexit then they don't deserve to be in power. They don't have to say they are undoing it or are rejoining, but if they can't explain the problem they won't be able to fix it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3599 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I don't disagree about a lost generation and the importance of getting the Tories out of power. I just cannot make myself believe that the only way Labour can proceed here is to become complicit in Brexit, which is exactly what they will become, and actively trying to enable the most dangerous and damaging political outcome in living memory. A Labour Brexit doesn't get better, it just gets worse slower. So either way, we're saying that whether it's the Tories or Labour, we're heading into a worse position. That we all have to accept this. To me, that is utterly crackers. The issue isn't even Brexit, it's that we have reached a stage as a society where it is impossible to have an honest conversation about the actual factors that determine how our country runs and what it is impacted by. If it isn't possible for us to do that, what is the fucking point in any of this? We're saying there are huge policy areas which cannot be talked about and just have to be accepted while we move deckchairs around elsewhere hoping for the best. You're talking about this lost generation as if it hasn't already happened. It has. Nothing Labour is going to do will change that. We will be unfucking this for the rest of our lives, and at some stage, there is going to have to be that honest conversation otherwise nothing ever gets learned. The truth is the only thing that can lead to the changes we need to prevent this shit happening again - we need media standards on misinformation. Standards of behaviour for politicians. Constitutional protections for institutions. Voting reform. Investment in civic education. Long term planning baked into political mindsets. Until we get these things, this fucking charade from the Tories and Labour's decision to play along with it is fundamentally damaging this country for the long term. We talk here as if it is simply an unavoidable fact that Brexit cannot be discussed in terms of its realities because of the political climate, but I put to you instead that the truth is more that Labour simply doesn't have the creativity, vision or balls to win while taking it head on. That's what I find so objectionable. This is not a strong Labour party, it's a weak one that we're trying to big up out of desperation. My thoughts exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3977 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 35 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said: If Labour can't win the argument that these border delays are caused by brexit then they don't deserve to be in power. They don't have to say they are undoing it or are rejoining, but if they can't explain the problem they won't be able to fix it As I've said before they can't /won't fix it or anything else as once in power you have to appease the people who put you there ahead of anything that's right. Even a renegotiated trade deal with the EU would be seen and sold as treason by the press and the tories. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30383 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 I’m still hoping for an electoral pact and / or an agreement on PR without a referendum. Probably in vain but that’s that’s the only way out of the mess long term. As Meenzer often points out we consistently get 60% of people voting for progressive parties. Yet we almost always get Conservative governments. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17746 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, spongebob toonpants said: If Labour can't win the argument that these border delays are caused by brexit then they don't deserve to be in power. They don't have to say they are undoing it or are rejoining, but if they can't explain the problem they won't be able to fix it They don't deserve to be in power. But the alternative is so much worse. You have a sense of nihilism that you have nothing to lose. Maybe this is true, but you must consider your kids in this equation. The idea of Truss in power for 7 years makes me feel almost suicidal. Fwiw I think labour will change in power, the changing demographics will demand it. We'll be back in the SM in a decade or so, maybe a bit longer, by which time we will be a bit of a basket case. By then though the existential threat of climate change will have results none of us can yet foresee. Always take the least worse option at any given time. That's my brand of pragmatism. Edited July 23, 2022 by Renton 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3599 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 25 minutes ago, Renton said: They don't deserve to be in power. But the alternative is so much worse. You have a sense of nihilism that you have nothing to lose. Maybe this is true, but you must consider your kids in this equation. The idea of Truss in power for 7 years makes me feel almost suicidal. Fwiw I think labour will change in power, the changing demographics will demand it. We'll be back in the SM in a decade or so, maybe a bit longer, by which time we will be a bit of a basket case. By then though the existential threat of climate change will have results none of us can yet foresee. Always take the least worse option at any given time. That's my brand of pragmatism. I thought this way for the longest time but I fear Starmer won't turn the country round, it will just get worse a bit slower. If Labour get into power without facing the truth, winning the argument and implementing an agenda that actually makes people's lives better, then the party will be dead. They will get the blame for the shitstorm that is coming. It won't be fair but they will deserve it. I doubt Labour will win an election again If they can't win the argument and they lose the election the shit will be on the Tories, and Labour can remind them at every turn. We cant turn the country round without being honest about the problems I'm not saying rejoin the EU btw,even I don't think that's arguable now, but that should be long term aim, secretly if necessary. But for now it's impossible for Labour to government successfully without being honest about the problems Look at the US, Biden got in purely by not being Trump, he's done nothing to make anybodies life better and the Republicans are going to charge back into power and carry on destroying the country Tl;Dr we are fucked either way, but if Labour get in without a plan we are fucked forever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26292 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26292 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 On 21/07/2022 at 10:41, ewerk said: Even better, she reckons that tax cuts will grow the economy AND lower inflation. When asked which economist supported that idea her answer was of course 'Patrick Minford'. Oh… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3977 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 Thing is, for people who've paid off their mortgage and have savings, 7% base rates sound desirable - i. e. Tory members/voters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30383 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34425 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 This pair of fucking idiots and their race to the bottom on FUCKING EVERYTHING. I'm the biggest cunt. No I'M the biggest cunt. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5904 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 (edited) It's unreal isn't it. Using "being on the same side as human rights lawyers" as an insult ffs Edited July 24, 2022 by Kid Dynamite 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19817 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 it’s like how people use the word do-gooder as an insult. Always found that one odd. look at that awful person, trying to do good things. How low can you get? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isegrim 8870 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 36 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: it’s like how people use the word do-gooder as an insult. Always found that one odd. look at that awful person, trying to do good things. How low can you get? Ah, good old LeazesMag… Worst are those good-doing accountants. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30383 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 So-called accountants 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isegrim 8870 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 Good doing, hung like a chinese mouse, so called accountants tbf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26292 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 That reminds me, I watched The Gray Man on Netflix last night and there was a disappointing lack of winklepickers on show. An entirely unrealistic biopic IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobos 297 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 (edited) Lovely. Wonderfully manipulative use of the word: cower. Edited July 24, 2022 by scoobos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26292 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 8 minutes ago, scoobos said: Lovely. Wonderfully manipulative use of the word: cower. FYP. This is literally where we’re at as a country. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3599 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Are we not inspired? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26292 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Labour speaking about the most pressing issue facing people right now? The absolute scoundrels. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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