spongebob toonpants 4042 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 Politically what will be disastrous will be leaving people not feeling better of Majority of people support rejoining already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21871 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 9 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said: I said it was glib. What's naive is thinking that anything other than radical action is going to prevent the downward path of the country. And France for all its problems has a retirement age of 62/64 and pays a more than 50% higher state pension Absolutely. At least there's a good reason for them being fucked, at least normal people have benefitted. But its not affordable now. So you get Barnier in, and his choice is either economic collapse or (relative) enforced austerity and pension age significantly increasing. The French may well end up choosing Le Pen and the former. How will thate end up do you think? A big problem now I think is most the previous major players, the UK, Germany, France, Japan, are peripheral at best now and dwarfed by the US and China. Against that context, what do we do? Join a union is the obvious answer but honestly, the EU is looking weaker than ever and closer integration is not happening any time soon. If France defaults, it may be game over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 4042 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 7 minutes ago, Renton said: Absolutely. At least there's a good reason for them being fucked, at least normal people have benefitted. But its not affordable now. So you get Barnier in, and his choice is either economic collapse or (relative) enforced austerity and pension age significantly increasing. The French may well end up choosing Le Pen and the former. How will thate end up do you think? A big problem now I think is most the previous major players, the UK, Germany, France, Japan, are peripheral at best now and dwarfed by the US and China. Against that context, what do we do? Join a union is the obvious answer but honestly, the EU is looking weaker than ever and closer integration is not happening any time soon. If France defaults, it may be game over. Europe is the only hope, better for them and better for us, its still a powerful trading block. Sadly it's not happening under this lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21871 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 2 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said: Europe is the only hope, better for them and better for us, its still a powerful trading block. Sadly it's not happening under this lot I'm as pro-European as anyone on this board. I had the EU flag in my profile before Rayvin joined. I always wanted full membership, the euro, and ultimately federalisation. But there is what I want, and there is reality. Look at the EU now and its constituent countries. Le Pen on the verge of becoming French Leader. A fascist in charge of Italy. AfD in Germany, with the powerhouse of Europe witnessing its industry collapse. Victor Orban. Right wing and nationalist parties rising everywhere in the continent, against a back drop of Trump and Putin. Theres's one hell of a lot wrong in Europe currently and for once the UK and its leader are not the issue here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5262 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 3 minutes ago, Renton said: I'm as pro-European as anyone on this board. I had the EU flag in my profile before Rayvin joined. I always wanted full membership, the euro, and ultimately federalisation. But there is what I want, and there is reality. Look at the EU now and its constituent countries. Le Pen on the verge of becoming French Leader. A fascist in charge of Italy. AfD in Germany, with the powerhouse of Europe witnessing its industry collapse. Victor Orban. Right wing and nationalist parties rising everywhere in the continent, against a back drop of Trump and Putin. Theres's one hell of a lot wrong in Europe currently and for once the UK and its leader are not the issue here. I go back to this notion that the West needs to wake up to the fact that Russia declared war on us 10 years ago - I still recall PL posting that Cadwalladr tweet that said as much and it was an eye opening moment for me. A lot of the problems we are now seeing can be traced back to Putin (though I suspect it's now taken on a life of its own, sadly). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21871 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 15 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I go back to this notion that the West needs to wake up to the fact that Russia declared war on us 10 years ago - I still recall PL posting that Cadwalladr tweet that said as much and it was an eye opening moment for me. A lot of the problems we are now seeing can be traced back to Putin (though I suspect it's now taken on a life of its own, sadly). Aye. Being a massive pedant, they went to war with us a decade ago, and we didn't realise or wake up in time. That was a colossal failure of normative politics in many countries. I wish they had declared it. Amazing how much damage this little insecure prick from St Petersburg has done to Western Europe, the US, and his own country in the time since. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 45673 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 https://iandunt.substack.com/p/assisted-dying-triumph-for-reformers?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1833442&post_id=152325857&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=172gw&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7107 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 1 hour ago, Gemmill said: https://iandunt.substack.com/p/assisted-dying-triumph-for-reformers?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1833442&post_id=152325857&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=172gw&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email 275 dickheads voting against it. There's not a single credible reason why this shouldn't be passed. And if the god squad disagree with it then they can opt out, the same way people can with abortions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3943 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 2 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said: 275 dickheads voting against it. There's not a single credible reason why this shouldn't be passed. And if the god squad disagree with it then they can opt out, the same way people can with abortions. Have you seen Liz Carr’s documentary about it? She’s an Atheist btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawb 4338 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 Having sat with my dad at home while he died of bowel cancer, and we couldn’t get help from a macmillan nurse or a district nurse because they were too busy, giving him the legally allowed amount of morphine to help him sleep, having the medicine in the house that would have ended him but couldn’t legally give him it. This is a fucking triumph, fuck everyone who voted against it. Sit with someone who is in immense pain with no way out and all they have to come is a painful and undignified death then come and talk to me. Cunts. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22095 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 This bill gives me hope we might still live in a progressive country after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3943 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 11 minutes ago, strawb said: Having sat with my dad at home while he died of bowel cancer, and we couldn’t get help from a macmillan nurse or a district nurse because they were too busy, giving him the legally allowed amount of morphine to help him sleep, having the medicine in the house that would have ended him but couldn’t legally give him it. This is a fucking triumph, fuck everyone who voted against it. Sit with someone who is in immense pain with no way out and all they have to come is a painful and undignified death then come and talk to me. Cunts. How about we talk to the families of disabled people admitted into hospital and given a dnr notice on their notes without consultation. There are disabled people justifiably worried this is the beginning of a process which leads to people being urged to end their life. Kate Leadbetter the proposer of the bill thinks just feeling you’re a burden should qualify you to commit suicide https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ubM4mNLYTfs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22095 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 7 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: How about we talk to the families of disabled people admitted into hospital and given a dnr notice on their notes without consultation. There are disabled people justifiably worried this is the beginning of a process which leads to people being urged to end their life. Kate Leadbetter the proposer of the bill thinks just feeling you’re a burden should qualify you to commit suicide https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ubM4mNLYTfs why should suicide be illegal? Genuine question. Do you believe in free will, if a person is of sound mind? we apparently live in a free country. Sovereignty of the individual is sacrosanct. The decision over when to check out is the ultimate freedom. Why is it the state’s business? Keeping people alive who would rather be dead and prolonging preventable suffering is also a massive drain on the nhs. i am yet to see a cogent argument against assisted dying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22095 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 (edited) My mother in law spent the last weeks of her life in intolerable pain. She wanted to die. The state wouldn’t not facilitate what she wanted. If we assisted her we would have committed a crime. I agree with Strawb. This bill is a triumph and has restored my faith in this country. Steamer’s first big win. Brilliant piece by Dunt btw @Gemmill Edited November 29 by Dr Gloom 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21871 Posted November 29 Share Posted November 29 32 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: How about we talk to the families of disabled people admitted into hospital and given a dnr notice on their notes without consultation. There are disabled people justifiably worried this is the beginning of a process which leads to people being urged to end their life. Kate Leadbetter the proposer of the bill thinks just feeling you’re a burden should qualify you to commit suicide https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ubM4mNLYTfs So because there is a theoretical risk of coercion or because of the risk of "slippery slope" (a logical fallacy in itself) others should suffer a tortured undignified death, or be forced into suicide, alone? None of the arguments against assisted death stack up for me. It's all about others wanting control over your life, and death. Taking away your bodily autonomy. And 90% of the time this boils down to religion, with people desperately trying to hide this using a range of fallacious logical arguments that wouldn't be out of place in sixth form. My body, my mind, my choice thanks, end of. Also, nice to see parliament debate this respectfully and reach the right conclusion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinRobin 11446 Posted November 30 Share Posted November 30 https://bsky.app/profile/russincheshire.bsky.social/post/3lc4f6mxikc2r People worried Assisted Dying would be a slippery slope. I kinda hope it is, cos I'd love to be able to write a living will that allowed me to be medically "offed" if I end up with dementia. It's not how I'd want to be, or my family have to care for me like that. My decision, yours might differ. 👍 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 45673 Posted November 30 Share Posted November 30 6 hours ago, Dr Gloom said: My mother in law spent the last weeks of her life in intolerable pain. She wanted to die. The state wouldn’t not facilitate what she wanted. If we assisted her we would have committed a crime. I agree with Strawb. This bill is a triumph and has restored my faith in this country. Steamer’s first big win. Brilliant piece by Dunt btw @Gemmill He's a great writer and I totally agree with you and strawb. I didn't think it was gonna go through, I thought it would get voted down and it would be another generation at least before there was another chance. To give someone the chance to decide for themselves how they want things to end, and not basically just say "no, suffer til the bitter end".... I don't know why it's taken so long. PS Steamer's greatest triumph. What a typo. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 45673 Posted November 30 Share Posted November 30 7 hours ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: How about we talk to the families of disabled people admitted into hospital and given a dnr notice on their notes without consultation. There are disabled people justifiably worried this is the beginning of a process which leads to people being urged to end their life. Kate Leadbetter the proposer of the bill thinks just feeling you’re a burden should qualify you to commit suicide https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ubM4mNLYTfs I understand the arguments of these people, but as Renton says it's a theoretical risk. I still think we're a better society for having this, and I wish it went further as RobinRobin says to allow poor cunts with locked in syndrome, MND, or advancing dementia to say "you know what, I think I've had enough". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 45673 Posted November 30 Share Posted November 30 Something fitting about the fact it's Jo Cox's sister that brought the bill too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9679 Posted November 30 Share Posted November 30 14 hours ago, Renton said: I'm as pro-European as anyone on this board. I had the EU flag in my profile before Rayvin joined. I always wanted full membership, the euro, and ultimately federalisation. But there is what I want, and there is reality. Look at the EU now and its constituent countries. Le Pen on the verge of becoming French Leader. A fascist in charge of Italy. AfD in Germany, with the powerhouse of Europe witnessing its industry collapse. Victor Orban. Right wing and nationalist parties rising everywhere in the continent, against a back drop of Trump and Putin. Theres's one hell of a lot wrong in Europe currently and for once the UK and its leader are not the issue here. Putin isn’t a backdrop, he’s the foundation of it all, including Trump. We've been at war/under attack for over 10 years but only one side is fighting it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawb 4338 Posted November 30 Share Posted November 30 9 hours ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: How about we talk to the families of disabled people admitted into hospital and given a dnr notice on their notes without consultation. There are disabled people justifiably worried this is the beginning of a process which leads to people being urged to end their life. Kate Leadbetter the proposer of the bill thinks just feeling you’re a burden should qualify you to commit suicide https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ubM4mNLYTfs I’ve got a severely disabled brother who we have a DNR on so we can talk about that too if you want? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 20525 Posted November 30 Share Posted November 30 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinRobin 11446 Posted December 1 Share Posted December 1 https://bsky.app/profile/parodypm.bsky.social/post/3lc5vcaizcc22 Says the man who got sacked twice for lying, illegally prorogued Parliament, gave peerages to his mates, broke his own lockdown rules and gave £millions to cronies in dodgy PPE contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 4042 Posted December 1 Share Posted December 1 https://bsky.app/profile/carolinelucas.bsky.social/post/3lcac4rljps2o Caroline Lucas @carolinelucas.bsky.social Oh come on Labour - so depressing to hear Pat McFadden say UK has no plans for a youth mobility scheme with the EU. We have schemes with NZ, Australia, Canada, Japan, Iceland, Uruguay & more - only reason not to have one with EU is fear of right wing press. Such cowardice @bbclaurak.bsky.social 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 45673 Posted December 1 Share Posted December 1 Aye that's pathetic. It wouldn't even cost them votes. The majority of people think Brexit was a mistake and giving young people back the opportunity to work in Europe is part of the fix. Nobody but the most blinkered would see that as a betrayal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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